Re: BANANAFISH digest 42
Elizabeth J Respess (ejrespess@juno.com)
Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:39:13 -0400 (EDT)
i am going to apologize now for the length of my post - i just got so
excited about all the ideas jumping around on this last digest, that i
went through and responded to probably WAY to many of them. there was
also a lot that i didn't respond to that i wanted to, maybe later.
proceed at your own risk...
>I don't think Muriel had much to do with Seymour's death - she was
>just along for the ride (though Seymour's marriage to her still eludes
>me - setting Muriel aside, why would he marry anyone? why would >he
participate in the act of marriage?). I think by having the gun >along
on his honeymoon there was some element of premeditation to >his suicide
- he must have been contemplating it.
i've been kind of sitting back and listening about the whole - why
muriel? - thing, mostly because i so was enjoying the discussion. i
don't know why muriel. it's something i never questioned beyond s's own
explanation. the trip to florida was not their honeymoon, by the way,
they had been married six years. also by the way - i did not know that
until i looked it up. i felt silly about not knowing it was their
honeymoon, so i checked. i frequently feel silly about not knowing
seemingly key info, (like that the way of the pilgrim was real book -
duh! - i continue to show my lack of exposure). they were on vacation
after s's stay at whatever institution he was at. back to my original
topic. it is completely believable to me that s loved muriel enough to
marry her - although i think it also worthy of discussion to explore the
question of why marriage (from s's perspective). he said he found her
"unimaginably brave" for being able to live not only without any
answers, but also without questions. i would imagine that loving muriel
is as close as he can ever come to living a mindless (as opposed to
mindful) life.
>fairy tale like young children do - it's okay for little kids to
>pretend - it doesn't mean they're become evil adults. Do we know how
old the little girl is?
i agree completely - and i appreciate your ability to put it kindly, as i
was not. and sybil is five, which developmentally speaking, is the
beginning of her ability to see things in the abstract, supposedly. i
was thinking about this last night - at this age, in a way, everything is
at the same time complete truth and complete abstraction - without
experience, every story is taken on faith, until the skill of discernment
comes into play. but i'm rambling.
> Ultimately, maybe he was wrapped up in a depression that
>not even his intellect could overcome (or recognize)...
that's my bet.
>Also I think Buddhism stresses truth or enlightenment or all those
>cool words from experience rather than book study or through >accident
and all the externals of religion are not needed. This sort >of sounds
like Seymour kind of running out of places or experience >to help him.
that may be true, but for me, i doubt that s's suicide was simply some
sort of transcendence to a new plane of experience - i think if s
actually believed there were no experiences left on this plane he would
fall into a deep depression. as detached as s was, he had an enormous
heart and the capacity for deep emotion, as his diary entries show. not
deluded or unrealistic love, but the love which comes from seeing the
beauty of life - even in something as seemingly irritating as muriel's
relationship with her mother, s "felt unbearably happy all evening. the
familiarity between muriel and her mother struck me as being so
beautiful... they know each other's weaknesses..." did s ever feel so
understood?
>Also when I think of Buddha I think of a nice rich kid from India who
>just didn't like what anybody else was doing or studying and >thought
the real world was just too ugly or phony for him.
i always thought of buddha as believing the phony world was NOT the real
world, which is why he set out on his own. i do see the similarity,
though.
>I think I'm just rambling...
ramble on john paul - i love it!
>if there wasn't a sort of Kaonish property (as in Zen
>koans like the line from Nine Stories) to each of his stories in that
>they aren't quite rational yet you can almost figure them but then >you
just can't quite come up with an answer. Or something like that.
like s's haiku?
> I sometimes think that the two most important words in the whole >story
are "without regret".
>
>All the best,
>Mattis Fishman
such meat in this digest!!! (no pun intended) i was also struck by
sybil's parting "without regret". i have to withhold comment though, for
now, as i am still overwhelmed by it.
>I must admit (possibly with trepidation) that my life has been >heavily
influenced because of JDS's writings.
i think you are in the perfect place to admit that :)
and to whoever said it - i, too, remember clearly where i was "when jfk
was shot"
>From: The Espy Family <cespy@peachnet.campus.mci.net>
>What = I am trying to say is, he felt enlightened to the point
sufficient
>that =
>maybe he didn't want to stay around in his Seymour incarnation any =
>longer, but wanted to progress. What do you think of this idea?
to be perfectly honest - it scares me. i can certainly understand where
you get the idea from, yours is the first argument for this train of
thought that i could even respond to, i guess because it doesn't seem
like you are condoning or attacking s's choice. as for the kiss on the
foot, it did seem to be a good-bye and expression of pure love. i never
considered that it could be gratitude, that does have a ring of truth in
it, and jds doesn't really say one way or the other. i know that my fear
of the idea comes from my own experiences and/or prejudices concerning
suicide, which were certainly not choices born of enlightenment, but
attachment to pain and hopelessness. so i don't know. i can't really
react to this at this point in a detached manner. i look forward to
reading more of other people's thoughts, though.
>Is there a chance that Seymour got his bell rung in Europe and >wasn't
quite firing on all cylinders down in Florida?
i'm wondering the same thing.
>How can someone so enlightened revel in such a beautifully sane
interaction with a prepubescent girl only to attack a woman for doing
what 99% of the population does in elevators, enter his hotel room and
shoot himself in the head?
this is also what makes me believe the two seymour theory.
>From: oconnort@nyu.edu
>I should add that my friend does NOT care for Salinger, and may not
>even know the story "Bananafish," so it is not some kind of weird
>emulation on his part.
i'm glad you added that - i was beginning to worry. :)
>I have ALWAYS attended events (invariably in an ill-fitting suit)
>looking for a version of this little man, with whom I've always
>imagined I could find a corner of the room, where we could sit away
>from the hubbub and watch the goings-on. I'm sorry to say that >I'm
still looking.
i think your family and my family should get together and go bowling.