Fishes -- I feel a bit like a voyeur in the Garden of Eden, hiding in the bushes, witnessing apples being eaten. But rather than bitch non-stop about the biblical and religious turn our fair secular list has taken (what could be termed a "listing to port" in nautical terms, if you catch my drowning drift, fishes), I think we should just come up with an alternative -- that would be more polite, less hurtful, and more constructive. So here is my suggestion, a great phrase I found in an old book of Salinger criticism: "Beatnik Peter Pan vs. Ivan Karamazov." Any thoughts? Obviously the book I am holding has some thoughts, ha ha, but it might be more fun to work through it on our own and come up with our own responses. I will say this -- the section seems to be asking for what Holden Caulfield stands for, if anything. I will also say this -- the book was written (or edited, anyway) in the early 60's, so the term "Beatnik" as used here is a bit loose, like one of us calling Hootie and the Blowfish an "alternative" band. But despite the imperfect usage, I think it may be productive to look at Holden in light of the dual nature of the Beats: 1) beatific, like mad saints, and 2) beaten down, or worn out -- and then compare/contrast that with Ivan Karamazov or Jay Gatsby or Peter Pan or Alice in Wonderland or ... anyone, really, so long as we get back on track. That is just my suggestion. No offense to the supporters of religious badminton, but ... you know, Jesus Christ. (: Mirjam and Rick