Subject: RE: unless ye become as little children
lp9616@bristol.ac.uk
Date: Sun May 12 2002 - 15:08:22 EDT
Dear All,
This is only tangentially connected to Salinger, but has anyone
heard/read 'Spoonface Steinberg'? It is the story of a little girl with
autism who is also dying of cancer, in the first person. Put like that,
it sounds as though it'll be nauseating crap, but it's actually really
funny and moving. Spoonface, the little girl, has such an innocent,
different view of the world. The observations she makes are really
striking because she has such different perceptions and values to
'normal' people. It was originally broadcast as a radio play on Radio 4,
and has since been adapted for the stage. It is currently touring and
also being broadcast on BBC 4 (no pithy comments from you please,
Scottie!) I wholeheartedly recommend it if you get the chance to hear
it.
Love, Lucy-Ruth
Quoting Micaela <mbombard@middlebury.edu>:
> I agree with you, Jim. I think it's less about children, and more
> about how
> they represent a group of people who have yet to be indoctrinated
> into
> society and adopt its ways of regarding the world. Yet it still
> remains
> that the people I just described are, for the most part, usually
> children.
>
> -Micaela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org
> [mailto:owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org]On Behalf Of Jim Rovira
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
> Subject: Re: unless ye become as little children
>
>
> I think the thing with Salinger and children (and I think you're
> right
> in looking to Teddy for answers) is indeed very much related to the
> influences of Zen Buddhism. The soul ages, grows, attains wisdom
> apart
> from normal human development so a Teddy, who has been reincarnated
> many, many times, can be very young and very gifted. The advantage
> of
> being a child (at least in western society...I think that comes
> across
> in Teddy as well) is that we haven't yet unlearned the wisdom we have
> in
> the course of our development as subjects in western society.
>
> This isn't necessarily something inherent in children, however --
> you
> definitely get the feeling that in a differently structured society
> adult growth could enhance development rather than retard it. In
> that
> case all children need to concern themselves with is further growth
> in a
> society devoted to just that goal.
>
> My experience raising four wonderful kids (who have their share of
> problems) has been that children are everything everyone says they
> are.
> Evil, brutal, selfish monsters filled with awe, wonder, and
> innocence.
>
> Jim
>
> Micaela wrote:
> >
> > While many of you East of the Atlantic may believe us American to
> have
> idealized notions about children (which I am not wholly denying), I
> feel the
> need to put in my two cents. We too, ordinarily consider Lord of the
> Flies
> and Animal Farm as staples of high school reading. So I don't think
> you can
> simply chalk the views up to be reinforced by our standards of
> literature.
> >
> > Secondly, I think that we are discounting the basics of child
> psychology.
> So maybe you all have the worlds brattiest kids, so what. While all
> kids
> (and adults) have these selfish tendencies, they are, admittedly, to
> varying
> degrees (thank God). I think the writings of Foucault and Freud are
> very
> interesting on the stages of childhood development. A child DOES
> almost
> literally live in a state of awe. How wonderful to see the world as
> one
> giant oceanic state, not discerning oneself from the entirety. It
> seems so
> close to the ideals of Buddhism. To a baby, you are as much the baby
> as the
> baby is you. This recalls a quote from Teddy about how when he was
> six he
> realized that Booper was God and her milk was God and she was "just
> pouring
> God into God." Teddy's mind has stayed in the oceanic state, not
> allowing
> things to "stop off" all of the time. When we play peek-a-boo with a
> child,
> they truly think we are disappearing a reappearing...and how magical
> does
> that seem?
> >
> > I'm not saying that I adore all children, hell, I've certainly had
> my
> share of babysitting violent little brats, but there still remains
> a
> fundamental difference between the MINDSET of the child and the
> adult,
> despite the far reaches of the Atlantic, despite last September,
> despite a
> world full of horrid little children. Salinger's obsession with
> "adult-like" children seems to negate a lot of the unseemly elements
> of
> childhood (as we see in young Booper who has not been reincarnated
> many
> times) and to reinforce the positive (perhaps "oceanic") aspects of
> the
> minds of children, which thus contribute to their more enlightened
> states.
> >
> > -Micaela
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org
> > [mailto:owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org]On Behalf Of James Rovira
> > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:12 PM
> > To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
> > Subject: Re: unless ye become as little children
> >
> > While of course there are people on this side of the Atlantic who
> don't
> harbor any illusions about what children are really like (i.e., those
> that
> actually have children), I think there's a lot to be said for your
> ideas
> here. Of all the teachings of Christ we could have focused upon --
> and the
> values that proceed from them -- we seem to have fixed upon this
> thing about
> children. What kind of a society woulddd we have if "be wise as
> serpents,
> but harmless as doves" was the dominant teaching, or even "love
> your
> neighbor as you love yourself?"
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Robert Bowman" <rbowman@indigo.ie>
> > To: <bananafish@roughdraft.org>
> > Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 20:45:21 +0100
> > Subject: unless ye become as little children
> >
> > Is it pushing things too far to suggest that the divergence
> > of views between Valèrie & Micaela on the simplicity
> > of children is a reflection of the wide Atlantic itself?
> >
> > I realise this is an old, & by now very boring, hobby-horse
> > of mine but I don't apologise for it. The mutual
> misapprehension
> > of the two cultures has engaged much better men than me:
> > Twain, Henry James, the Expatriates of the Twenties,
> > Graham Greene - to name only two.
> >
> > Although I know The Catcher appeared on the syllabus
> > of the more enlightened secondary schools of these lands,
> > what was much more extensively prescribed was
> > William Golding's Lord of the Flies - a darker vision
> > of boyhood altogether. All my sons' generation read it
> > for their Leaving Certificate, along with Animal Farm
> > - not exactly the most optimistic of works, either.
> >
> > Surely in almost all his stuff, Salinger assumes somewhere,
> > a state of blessed innocence to which all of us could,
> > or should, aspire (as saints) or revert (as children).
> > And isn't this an inherent part of the American Dream?
> > When Micaela hopes to God she won't, in twenty years,
> > be dulled by cyncism & disillusion, I think she's expressing
> > a sentiment deeply felt by her compatriots & not just
> > her contemporaries. In the Dream, when the wagons
> > roll west what moves us, surely, is the optimism undismayed
> > by considerations of mere reality? And what about those
> > two great archetypes, Huck & Gatsby? One a rogue,
> > the other a crook, yet both retaining a buoyancy that
> > derives from their essential naiveté.
> >
> > An important part of the American self image is a kindly,
> > innocent confidence - exploited all too often by the envious
> > world. But there it persists: undeterred, rising once again
> > up off the floor & ready to save the rest of us with
> > food parcels & lectures on the nature of democracy.
> > This is Love for the Fat Lady made manifest.
> >
> > The startling visibility of September Eleven rendered
> > it indelible for everyone - no matter what part of the world
> > they witnessed it. But away down deep, beneath the
> revulsion,
> > was the feeling among many non-Americans that this was
> > a long overdue disillusioning. For how many great European
> cities
> > - within living memory - was the death of a few thousands
> > in a morning by no means a one-off?
> >
> > Salinger is, of course, greatly cherished in Europe &
> > elsewhere but I doubt he ever enjoyed there, or could enjoy,
> > the acceptance that arises from that conviction he shares
> > with so many of his countrymen, the conviction:
> > 'YES. If we'd only shed all the shitty selfishness &
> > become again as litle children we could make the world
> > an Eden.'
> >
> > No one between the Brittany Coast & the Ural Mountains
> > could ever again possibly believe that.
> >
> > Scottie B.
> >
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