From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 1 18:03:00 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i11N30X28371 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Cornish guards its own Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 18:01:49 -0500 Message-Id: <20040201230149.2996@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi, all. I'm passing this along for a friend who pointed it out to me: A happy belated 85th to our friend up north. --tim Town takes pride in guarding J.D. Salinger Reclusive author's 85th birthday was yesterday Friday, January 2, 2004 By JODIE TILLMAN Valley News Cornish CORNISH - They stalked him at the grocery store, posted descriptions of his house on the Internet and detailed in essays how they almost sought him out before giving up and coming away with a new understanding of themselves and the world. But you're not one of Them: You're just wondering how author and Cornish resident J.D. Salinger was doing yesterday, his 85th birthday. You wouldn't be the only one curious about the author of The Catcher in the Rye, the 1951 novel featuring the inimitable teenage protagonist Holden Caulfield, who has run away from prep school. Salinger's desire for privacy is famous among the journalists and fans who have pursued him and the neighbors who have helped shield him from the spotlight during the 50 years he has lived here. Unsolicited mail goes unanswered or is returned to senders. Prominent signs forbidding trespassing are posted on two trees on either side of the bottom of his winding, dirt driveway. "You ask yourself, 'What is this guy doing?' " says Thomas Burmeister, a New York correspondent for the German Press Agency who wrote a story in German newspapers last week about Salinger turning 85. Such a vacuum of information exists about a man who has not published any new material in some 40 years and who has aged mostly behind closed doors that Burmeister was looking for small details: What newspapers does he subscribe to? Does the Cornish library have his books? But Salinger's neighbors here in Cornish, who may know such details, continue to reveal little about the author. Some say they are quiet on principle. Others say they also have other stories on their minds - ones that may be less interesting to the rest of the world, but much more important to them. One neighbor, a man wearing a plaid shirt, politely declines to say anything, explaining, "That's New England," as he shuts his door. Others make lengthier pronouncements. "It really is a New Hampshire tradition, and I think it is a robust tradition here in the town of Cornish," says Peter Burling, minority leader of the New Hampshire House of Representatives, speaking about how people here have let their neighbor be. "We're proud to have him as a neighbor. Yes, I'm a great admirer of his work. (But) the fact that I enjoy his work doesn't give me the right of access." Anne Tracy, a farmer who used to baby-sit Salinger's children, says she now only sees him on occasion, driving down the road. Another neighbor says Salinger drives a sport utility vehicle. "Don't see him, we keep to ourselves," says Tracy, as her two border collies frolic through the living room of her farmhouse. "I think he has a right to be protected. He has a right to privacy." But she did read a book published three years ago by Salinger's daughter, Margaret. "It wasn't very nice," Tracy says. "If you don't have something good to say . . . " Her voice trails off. Down the road is David Eastman, a retired mapping expert for Granite State Electric. Many years ago, he used to see Salinger at the Plainfield General Store. "He might say 'Good morning,' but only if you say it first," says Eastman. Ask him about Salinger's books, and Eastman says The Catcher in the Rye was a fine read. But his favorite book is All Creatures Great and Small by British veterinarian James Herriot. He changes the subject to some of his other neighbors. There's the guy down the road who fell off the roof and dislocated his shoulder. "He's a good neighbor to have, because he can fix anything," says Eastman. Or there's a new neighbor, a lady with dogs, who just moved in. Eastman and his wife dropped by to welcome her to the neighborhood, and she seemed very nice, he reports. Drive through Cornish past a gray barn whose slight tilt is confirmed by the message painted on its boards: "Yes Ilene." Inside nearby town hall, a quilt that won third place at a state festival hangs on the wall. Salinger's wife, Colleen O'Neill, who says she does not want to talk about her husband, is part of the group that sewed it. A young woman is asking Town Clerk Reigh Sweetser whether she'll need to renew her car registration during the time she'll be away in Italy. A man is picking up an absentee voting ballot. Sweetser says that Salinger does not have any dogs registered with the town, but not much more. Down at the Cornish General Store, the town's newsletter, Consider This . . . News and Stories from Wonderful, Marvelous, Strange & True Cornish Residents, is on sale for $1. Inside are minutes from the November board of selectmen meetings, a piece on environmentally friendly chemicals and a letter titled "Someone Shot my Cow," which is, appropriately, about the shooting death of a Scottish Highlander named Sherry. No mention of any local residents' birthdays. Harold Morse, a 69-year-old retired highway superintendent, is sitting at a table in the store, drinking an Orangeina. He says he was a teenager when Salinger was a youth group leader at the Cornish church he attended. The author took them on camping trips to Lake Sunapee, he says. "He was a nice guy," says Morse. But Morse isn't saying much about that. In fact, he says the real story is not about Salinger. It's about a magnificent Christmas light display just down the road. "Better than LaSalette," he says, referring to the Enfield shrine's well-known display. But can't we go back to Salinger? "You're inquisitive," he notes before cheerfully changing the subject back to the Christmas lights. And so you have no choice. You head in the direction he pointed, looking for a road somewhere on the right and a startling array of colors hanging from a home and trees, forgetting why you came here in the first place. Wednesday, December 31, 2003 COPYRIGHT Concord Monitor & New Hampshire Patriot - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 1 20:33:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i121X9D05130 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:33:09 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <16f.294101c8.2d4f0058@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:22:32 EST Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16f.294101c8.2d4f0058_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_16f.294101c8.2d4f0058_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeez, Tim What kind of American are you, posting during the Super Bowl? --John --part1_16f.294101c8.2d4f0058_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeez, Tim

What kind of American are you, posting during the Super Bowl?

--John
--part1_16f.294101c8.2d4f0058_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 1 20:44:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i121i2C05692 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:44:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 20:37:20 -0500 Message-Id: <20040202013720.22088@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John Omlor said: > Jeez, Tim > > What kind of American are you, posting during the Super Bowl? When is the Super Bowl? (And what sport is it?) I have heard of it as being a place (?) or time (?) or event (?) during which very expensive ads are run, such as the Apple Computer "1984" ad. (Which has been updated for the 20th anniversary to show the hammer-throwing woman wearing an iPod!) Anyhow, whatever it is, does that make you a subversive ["dangerous subversive," of course, who reads the Beats] for having READ my mail at that time? Pop culture is just not my thing. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 1 21:42:07 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i122g7908398 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:42:07 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:16:28 EST Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with women shaking shiny things at the cameras. And smoke. And yes, the fact that we are having this conversation makes us dangerous. Anyway, it's the show that's on before Survivor. Yours, --John PS: I *have* been watching the commercials, and apparently America has entered a new era. The following words, verbatim, were just spoken during the most watched show of the year: "Erections lasting more than four hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention." --part1_82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim,

I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with women shaking shin= y things at the cameras.

And smoke.

And yes, the fact that we are having this conversation makes us dangerou= s.

Anyway, it's the show that's on before Survivor.

Yours,

--John

PS:  I  *have* been watching the commercials, and apparently A= merica has entered a new era.  The following words, verbatim, were just= spoken during the most watched show of the year:

"Erections lasting more than four hours, though rare, require immediate=20= medical attention."


--part1_82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 1 22:18:10 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i123IAR10124 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:18:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:49:42 -0500 Message-Id: <20040202024942.399@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc@aol.com> References: <82.43cfdd9.2d4f0cfc@aol.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Sun, Feb 1, 2004, Omlor@aol.com said: >I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with women shaking shiny >things at the cameras. > >And smoke. > >And yes, the fact that we are having this conversation makes us dangerous. Indeed. What sport is it, then? It can't be baseball (out of season) and it can't be hockey. Therefore it must be soccer, basketball, or (American) football. >PS: I *have* been watching the commercials, and apparently America has >entered a new era. The following words, verbatim, were just spoken >during the >most watched show of the year: > >"Erections lasting more than four hours, though rare, require immediate >medical attention." Oh, my. I am most definitely not going to address that one in public. For me this conversation stops and immediately goes to private email! --tim P.S. Were there any good political ads? Did Apple run any ad? The updated "1984" ad is available on www.apple.com for downloading. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 07:13:11 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12CDBv05016 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:13:11 -0500 (EST) X-Originating-IP: [63.167.237.65] X-Originating-Email: [lmanningvines@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmanningvines@hotmail.com From: "L. Manning Vines" To: Subject: Re: Hooked fish in hip-waders? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 04:55:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2004 09:59:51.0720 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CE6A280:01C3E973] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org <> Delighted, of course. -Robbie - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 07:13:10 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12CDAs05015 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:13:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1374369.1075704978738.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 01:56:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: jlsmith3@earthlink.net To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Perhaps a futile gesture... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
Er, presumably Omlor, if you've read all these texts chock full of dev= astating refutations of what Daniel is saying, you could have offered them = in place of constantly reminding everyone what an intellectual titan you ar= e and what a cretin Daniel must be.
 
luke

-----Original Message-----
From: Omlor@aol.com
Sent: Jan 2= 7, 2004 6:11 PM
To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
Subject: Perhaps a fu= tile gesture...

Hey Dani= el,

Here's a thought.

Let's just try simple honesty.  = If you are willing...

Have you read:

Naked Lunch, The Wild = Boys, The Soft Machine, Nova Express, Exterminator, My Education, A Coney I= sland of the Mind, Who Are We Now?, Routines, The Happy Birthday of Death, = The Subterraneans, Visions of Cody, Desolation Angels, The First Third, Kad= dish, any Gary Snyder at all, Ginsberg's Collected Poems?

Any of th= em?  

Or is your first-hand knowledge of this literature -- th= e subject you are discussing here -- limited strictly to, perhaps, On the R= oad and Howl and a couple episodes of Dobey Gillis and The Beverly Hillbill= ies?

(Please tell me you've at least read On the Road and Howl care= fully, please assure me of that.)

Honestly, Daniel, how many of the= texts I've just listed above (in just a very small sampling of the list I = could have composed), have you actually read?

Are you willing to an= swer that question?  

If so, then we can talk about them.
=
--John

- * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 08:18:52 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12DIqW07892 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:18:52 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:31:55 EST Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_e6.466b111d.2d4f9d3b_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_e6.466b111d.2d4f9d3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I didn't see the Apple ad, although it's possible it ran while I was doing other things. There was a very nice ad for a product called "Shards of Glass Ice Pops" which turned out to be about tobacco company advertising. But I didn't see any ads for the political parties of candidates. The news this morning seems to be about the end of the half-time show, which included a small surprise -- Justin Timberlake ripping off part of Janet Jackson's top to reveal more of her breast (or at least the one she now owns) than anyone intended. CBS has formally apologized. Is this a great country or what? Enjoy the week, --John --part1_e6.466b111d.2d4f9d3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim,

I didn't see the Apple ad, although it's possible it ran while I was doi= ng other things.

There was a very nice ad for a product called "Shards of Glass Ice Pops"= which turned out to be about tobacco company advertising.

But I didn't see any ads for the political parties of candidates.

The news this morning seems to be about the end of the half-time show, w= hich included a small surprise -- Justin Timberlake ripping off part of Jane= t Jackson's top to reveal more of her breast (or at least the one she now ow= ns) than anyone intended.  CBS has formally apologized.  

Is this a great country or what?

Enjoy the week,

--John
--part1_e6.466b111d.2d4f9d3b_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 08:18:52 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12DIqj07887 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:18:52 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <1e.219bf6a5.2d4f9bc6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:25:42 EST Subject: Re: Perhaps a futile gesture... To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e.219bf6a5.2d4f9bc6_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_1e.219bf6a5.2d4f9bc6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luke, Regarding Daniel's general mistakes concerning the personal history of the movement and the authors, I've already cited the relevant events and even some of the details in specific works in earlier posts. But, I certainly cannot refute any of Daniel's specific readings of any these works, since he has offered none at all. Indeed, this is one of the reasons for my initial suspicions. Thanks for reminding us of this. --John --part1_1e.219bf6a5.2d4f9bc6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luke,

Regarding Daniel's general mistakes concerning the personal history of t= he movement and the authors, I've already cited the relevant events and even= some of the details in specific works in earlier posts.

But, I certainly cannot refute any of Daniel's specific readings of any=20= these works, since he has offered none at all.  Indeed, this is one of=20= the reasons for my initial suspicions.

Thanks for reminding us of this.

--John





--part1_1e.219bf6a5.2d4f9bc6_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 11:32:36 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12GWaS17875 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:32:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <401E6896.4040805@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:11:18 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Anyone see the Budweiser ad? Romantic evening in a horse drawn carriage? :) Jim Omlor@aol.com wrote: > Tim, > > I didn't see the Apple ad, although it's possible it ran while I was > doing other things. > > There was a very nice ad for a product called "Shards of Glass Ice > Pops" which turned out to be about tobacco company advertising. > > But I didn't see any ads for the political parties of candidates. > > The news this morning seems to be about the end of the half-time show, > which included a small surprise -- Justin Timberlake ripping off part > of Janet Jackson's top to reveal more of her breast (or at least the > one she now owns) than anyone intended. CBS has formally apologized. > > Is this a great country or what? > > Enjoy the week, > > --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 11:32:38 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12GWcX17899 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:32:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402021616.i12GGMCo006881@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Alexander's Companions ride again Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:16:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John, your quest for certainty is disturbing. Where will you hide when all those nooks and crannies are ironed out? Do you think, possibly, just maybe in the world (the unexclusive world with Literature as a subset) that Burroughs, Corso, Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and of Course, Jack Kerouac are not the only Beats? That maybe my experience with Beat is not restricted to your ever swirly hurlyburly text centered world? That I have actually spoken with and have known self proclaimed beats back in the day and some who actually occupy space today? F'r instance, I am friends with a former Hell's Angel who was a notable Sax player back in the day in the San Francisco area (he jammed with Janis), and I have heard a few stories on the subject. But we all know that the 'texts' is where the real Truth is, and nothing but your honor. Daniel Daniel, Nice rant, but you didn't answer the question. Why am I not surprised? Once again, which texts on this list have you read carefully? Naked Lunch, The Wild Boys, The Soft Machine, Nova Express, Exterminator, My Education, A Coney Island of the Mind, Who Are We Now?, Routines, The Happy Birthday of Death, The Subterraneans, Visions of Cody, Desolation Angels, The First Third, Kaddish, any Gary Snyder at all, Ginsberg's Collected Poems? Tell me, specifically, and we'll discuss them in detail if you'd like. Still waiting, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 11:32:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12GWbq17893 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:32:37 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:10:14 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:10:14 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 401E7661.ADC2.1E75.000] Content-Identifier: 06605401E7666007 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <401E7661.ADC2.1E75.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 02 Feb 2004 08:10:14 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, Omlor@aol.com Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Tim just happened to be on the internet, I'm sure, because he had to make sure that what he really saw was Janet Jackson's boob. It was, Tim. I'm pretty sure I saw it too, but I'm double checking some internet sites, JUST IN CASE. I'm wondering if this boob was the one that reached the largest public audience in the world. >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/01/04 05:33PM >>> Jeez, Tim What kind of American are you, posting during the Super Bowl? --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 11:32:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12GWbr17883 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:32:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402021559.i12Fxise001504@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Confronting Campus Radicals coming through the rye Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 15:59:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Now that I am in your boat, darn, you got me, will you take three wishes for my release? Daniel Daniel, I love that you took the "smart people" post seriously. But you're making it all too easy. It's not any fun if you just jump in the boat. All the best, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 12:22:57 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12HMvp20679 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:22:57 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:37:17 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:37:17 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 401E7CB5.ADC2.2459.000] Content-Identifier: 029C8401E7CBD012 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <401E7CB5.ADC2.2459.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 02 Feb 2004 08:37:17 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Alexander's Companions ride again Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org this discussion's making me a little beat. what do you think salinger thought of janet's boob? surprise? an eyebrow raise? no response? -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/02/04 08:32AM >>> John, your quest for certainty is disturbing. Where will you hide when all those nooks and crannies are ironed out? Do you think, possibly, just maybe in the world (the unexclusive world with Literature as a subset) that Burroughs, Corso, Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and of Course, Jack Kerouac are not the only Beats? That maybe my experience with Beat is not restricted to your ever swirly hurlyburly text centered world? That I have actually spoken with and have known self proclaimed beats back in the day and some who actually occupy space today? F'r instance, I am friends with a former Hell's Angel who was a notable Sax player back in the day in the San Francisco area (he jammed with Janis), and I have heard a few stories on the subject. But we all know that the 'texts' is where the real Truth is, and nothing but your honor. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 12:22:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12HMwM20704 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:22:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402021709.i12H9tfV023566@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Alert- Bulletin: to see it all so grossly reduced and caricature d here on a list dedicated to reading. Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:09:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Cornish - It has been reported today that well known writer and recluse J. D. Salinger had a bowel movement at 8:08 AM this morning while shopping at the local grocers. Malachi Danbury said "it was a monster and quite dense so I talked him into buying some more fresh produce, you know, plenty of roughage makes a happy colon." The stool had a smooth texture a dark brown color with a slight green tint. It will be available for viewing until Saturday. 10% off all grocery purchases of more that $25.00 just for mentioning this story. Cornish Monitor Daniel this discussion's making me a little beat. what do you think salinger thought of janet's boob? surprise? an eyebrow raise? no response? -mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 12:22:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12HMwH20699 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:22:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402021643.i12GhWVM015558@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: A brief explanation Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:43:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org ???? Michael said something? Daniel Excellent, Michael. Thanks, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 12:22:57 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12HMvX20687 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:22:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402021639.i12Gd2WK014092@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: A brief explanation; Boxers or Jockey's? Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:38:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Daniel is lying, how else can you explain an alternate reading of any text or groups of text that differ from the authorative voice? "discussion"? Since when John do you need to know what I have read to advance your reading? Topic: Beat is much more closely related to traditional American thought as characterized by Melville, Twain, and Hemingway then is to the cultural phenomena known as Hippy. There you go John, 500 words minimum double spaced. We will grade it as a class. Sister Daniel Mary Elephant Holy Mother of Annoyance Elementary School PS "evidence"? there you go again John looking for certainty in all the wrong places, looking for certainty in all the wrong faces. For all those following the "discussion" about Beat literature, I would like to offer a small bit of explanation. When I recently offered (and re-offered) Daniel a list of titles and asked him to name specifically which works he had read so that we might discuss them in detail, I did not do it because I think that this is a comprehensive list of "Beat literature" or because I believe that reading them all is a prerequisite for any discussion or even in order to demonstrate how much of the work I have read myself. I did it for a completely different reason. I think Daniel is lying. I don't think he has read this work. Or perhaps he read a bit of it once a long time ago and no longer recalls any of it. Because I see no evidence in anything in he has written here that he is in any way familiar with any of the specific texts or their details and the only conclusion I can reach is that he is simply lying about having read them or knowing what's in them. And so I am asking for details, as evidence, to demonstrate to me that he is not lying, that he has indeed read this material. You see, I am currently spending a lovely semester with this rich and diverse body of poetry and prose and it's a bit annoying, frankly, to see it all so grossly reduced and caricatured here on a list dedicated to reading. And, beyond that, it's sort of sad and slightly pathetic to imagine someone feeling compelled to participate in a listserv discussion on works he either hasn't read or doesn't recall in any detail, hoping that no one notices. I could ask a question or two about the books, about specifics, simple things, and I am fairly sure that Daniel would be unable to answer them (without running to Google). But that would be embarrassing. So I'm waiting. And we'll see if there ever appears any evidence that he actually has read or recalls any of the works we are discussing. In the meantime, I urge you all to go out and sample some of this lively and exciting and passionate and richly complicated poetry and prose by people like Ginsberg and Burroughs and Corso and Ferlinghetti and Kerouac and all the rest. It will be well worth your time. Thanks, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 12:22:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i12HMwZ20694 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 12:22:58 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:39:46 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 02 Feb 2004 08:39:46 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 401E7D4B.ADC2.24EC.000] Content-Identifier: 03096401E7D52004 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <401E7D4B.ADC2.24EC.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 02 Feb 2004 08:39:46 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, jrovira@drew.edu Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org made me never want to drink budweiser again. however, the funny thing is that i farted at the EXACT same time as the horse. i wish MINE could burn girl's faces. i just ended up burning my hand. -mike >>> jrovira@drew.edu 02/02/04 08:33AM >>> Anyone see the Budweiser ad? Romantic evening in a horse drawn carriage? :) Jim Omlor@aol.com wrote: > Tim, > > I didn't see the Apple ad, although it's possible it ran while I was > doing other things. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 22:28:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i133Swn23269 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:28:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040203024144.8503.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:41:44 -0800 (PST) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040202024942.399@mail.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > P.S. Were there any good political ads? Were you aware of the big controversy? There's this internet-based political action group called moveon.org that tried to buy a 30 second time slot for its winning ad of the Bush in 30 seconds campaign. (The winning ad was pretty good, actually. You can download it at: http://www.bushin30seconds.org/ Apparently, CBS said that the ad during that time slot would sway political opinion too much, that it does not air ads like this from political advocacy groups. Anyway. A couple of Senators and several Representatives protested publicly on the Senate floor, and CBS was flooded with calls. Of course, CBS still didn't air the ad. Once, I respected them more than other networks. Best, Cecilia. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 23:18:12 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i134ICQ25252 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:18:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:04:26 -0500 Message-Id: <20040203040426.5085@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040203024144.8503.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040203024144.8503.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 2, 2004, ceciliabaader@yahoo.com said: >Were you aware of the big controversy? There's this internet-based >political action group called moveon.org that tried to buy a 30 second >time slot for its winning ad of the Bush in 30 seconds campaign. (The >winning ad was pretty good, actually. You can download it at: > > http://www.bushin30seconds.org/ Yep, I was aware of that ... I actually reviewed all the candidates. My favorite was the one called, I think, "My Country," in which a Pakistani- looking man talked about all the limits on civil liberties in his country, all the ways it was becoming a police state, and then, when he asks "Why should you care about what is happening in my country?" the camera pans to show that he is standing on the Queens side of the East River, right across from the U.N. headquarters, as he says, "My country is the United States." It wasn't funny, but it was effective. I like how MoveOn (mostly) hits the mark with its guerilla tactics. You know the Republicans are already defrosting their "dirty tricks" TV Dinners. >Of course, CBS still didn't air the ad. > >Once, I respected them more than other networks. Respect is an increasingly scarce commodity, when you talk about media companies. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 2 23:18:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i134ICC25257 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:18:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: A close reading of Catcher Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:12:46 -0500 Message-Id: <20040203041246.30104@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org As some people may recall, I went through a re-reading jag a few weeks ago of the four JDS books, because I needed something like psychic comfort food. I came upon another discrepancy, this time in Catcher, that struck me as kind of funny, and that startled me because I never noticed it before. When Holden is back in his room, after having lost the fencing team equipment on the subway, he talks about Ackley and how everyone calls him just "Ackley" and Holden calls him "Ackley kid," and then Holden says that even Ackley's roommate, Herb Gale, calls him "Ackley." Holden speculates that when Ackley gets married, his wife will probably call him just "Ackley." Then, later in the night (after the fight with Stradlater), Holden goes in Ackley's room and finds him looking all spooky with the acne medicine on his bed. He asks Ackley if he can sleep over while Ackley's roommate is away. But at this point, a few pages later, "Herb Gale" has instead become "Ely," and is mentioned as "Ely" several times. I'm genuinely not playing "gotcha" here; it's just an anomaly that caught my eye, and I wonder if anyone has noticed this sort of detail in the novel. Actually, I think it is the only "continuity" issue I recall from the book, but by its unique characteristics the discrepancy stands out in an absolutely PERfect narrative. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 08:25:54 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13DPsI22171 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Omlor@aol.com" (by way of Tim O'Connor ) X-From_: Omlor@aol.com Tue Feb 3 06:45:37 2004 X-Original-To: tim@roughdraft.org Message-ID: <1a9.1fa587b8.2d50e3dc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:45:32 EST Subject: Fwd: Alexander's Companions ride again To: tim@roughdraft.org X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==_20040203131708.31276-1_==" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --==_20040203131708.31276-1_== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was the first one. --J. --==_20040203131708.31276-1_== Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was the first one.

--J.
--==_20040203131708.31276-1_== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, let me say that I am continually amused by the fact that suggesting someone carefully and thoroughly read the works they are discussing is seen as a provocative or presumptuous or even hostile act, especially within a community of self-professed readers. Since when is asking for specifics and a working familiarity with the words an irrational or impolite request? Second, I am not looking for certainty in any of this, Daniel. Just reassurance that we are talking about the same works and that we have both read them. And once again, I get none from this post of yours. And once again I am not surprised. Let's review. I mentioned and parodied the Beat literature that I was currently teaching. I even named the specific authors right off the bat. You mistakenly and ahistorically conflated that literature and those authors with hippies and communes. I pointed out specific texts and historical events that belied that conflation and asked if you had read the specific literature in question. I have still not seen an answer to that question. Instead, I get a story about a friend who jammed with Janis Joplin in San Francisco? And is there any reason why this should not confirm my initial suspicions? If you've read the works I am talking about and want to discuss them in detail, fine. Let's go. If not, admit it and we can move on. Today my students and I tore through Ginsberg's words, his invocations and his cries and his verses and his Whitmanesque insistence and his Blakean visions and his breathless passion. As William Carlos Williams has said of Allen, "Poets are damned but they are not blind, they see withh the eyes of the angels. This poet sees through and all around the horrors he partakes of in the very intimate details of his poem. He avoids nothing but experiences it to the hilt. He contains it. Claims it as is own -- and, we believe, laughs at it and has the time and affrontery to love a fellow of his choice and record that love in a well made poem." It was an hour when the students saw poetry as something that could rouse and excite and provoke thought and still inspire with beauty. And it was worth the price of admission. Rail on, Daniel, against the "texts" and my "world." But we are readers here. And this is one of the things I love. All the best, --John --==_20040203131708.31276-1_==-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 08:25:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13DPs522166 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Two posts via me to the list Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:15:59 -0500 Message-Id: <20040203131559.18707@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi all ... the state of email right now is more or less iffy, given the volume of infected mails and/or the numbers of bounced messages people get because their addresses were used in forged mail that was infected and then rejected by the receiver, causing more havoc. I have a couple of messages that were sent yesterday but never arrived at the list, and I mention that because I am going to pass them along manually. But don't be confused; the sender is John Omlor (omlor@aol.com), though they may appear to be from me. Anyone else who sent messages that did not show up, please feel free to contact me privately. I'm a little startled, because this is the first time mail to this list has been simply dropped on the floor before delivery ... though from what I hear, aol.com and hotmail.com users are experiencing significant delays between when they send mail and when it arrives. But ... whatever ... two messages coming under my name but not by me. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 08:25:55 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13DPt522176 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:25:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Omlor@aol.com" (by way of Tim O'Connor ) X-From_: Omlor@aol.com Tue Feb 3 06:45:58 2004 X-Original-To: tim@roughdraft.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:45:53 EST Subject: Fwd: A brief explanation; Boxers or Jockey's? To: tim@roughdraft.org X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==_20040203131736.28126-1_==" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --==_20040203131736.28126-1_== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was the second. --J. --==_20040203131736.28126-1_== Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was the second.

--J.
--==_20040203131736.28126-1_== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I thought. Thanks, Daniel. --John --==_20040203131736.28126-1_==-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 10:38:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13FcMx29536 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:38:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <401FB832.9040008@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:03:14 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own References: <20040203024144.8503.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> <20040203040426.5085@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040203040426.5085@mail.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The ads are generally incendiary and grossly biased. There's no great sacrifice of virtue in refusing to air them. I think the base critique offered by the ads is valid, but comparisons between the US and Pakistan is freaking ridiculous...unless you've never been anywhere outside the US, of course. No, our educational system, for the most part, isn't going completely under and no, there's nothing unusual about Bush's alignment with special interests (a complaint Dean is making about Kerry these days), and no, Bush really isn't selling your children. This is all very silly and not the type of political discourse that actually disseminates useful knowledge or ways of handling knowledge. Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: >It wasn't funny, but it was effective. > >I like how MoveOn (mostly) hits the mark with its guerilla tactics. You >know the Republicans are already defrosting their "dirty tricks" TV Dinners. > > > >>Of course, CBS still didn't air the ad. >> >>Once, I respected them more than other networks. >> >> > >Respect is an increasingly scarce commodity, when you talk about media >companies. > >--tim > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 10:38:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13FcMA29535 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:38:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040203140224.51612.qmail@web41702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:02:24 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: RE: Alexander's Companions ride again To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <401E7CB5.ADC2.2459.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John, Do you know Ginsberg's last book, "Death and Fame"? I thought of your Williams quote as I gazed at the cover picture of Allen standing next to a wall with a picture of Whitman on it and a towel hanging below the picture. Ginsberg seems to be looking into the camera with a calm gaze that says yes, this is who I am while I stand humbly in my east village apartment...anyway the poems in this book really confront his dying in personal and very touching ways.Sometimes I think Ginsberg is just too self -centered and his poems are only about him, but this book goes further. And I agree that we are a list of readers and that's what I enjoy most. Why not check out Ginsberg's l997 book to see how a poet is not just categorized but alive with death, vision, and good words? Esmé4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 10:38:21 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13FcLk29534 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:38:21 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <14f.298594ee.2d50fff0@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:45:20 EST Subject: Re: Two posts via me to the list To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_14f.298594ee.2d50fff0_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_14f.298594ee.2d50fff0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Tim. I was wondering what happened to those. Sent them yesterday a little after noon (without the strangely repeated opening lines, of course). Sounds like this worm and virus problem is getting truly complicated and messy. I, for one, updated everything again this morning, after seeing two strange pieces of mail in my AOL box that came from unknown origins. And around campus there's a strange mail-paranoia building, everyone is treating every unrecognized address or piece of mail as if it were going to explode. I don't even download things sent to me by students via our computer labs, since they are a 7th Avenue hotbed of infections. I hope everyone out there is practicing safe-sending and that you all remain free from invasion. All the best, --John --part1_14f.298594ee.2d50fff0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Tim.

I was wondering what happened to those.  Sent them yesterday a litt= le after noon (without the strangely repeated opening lines, of course).

Sounds like this worm and virus problem is getting truly complicated and= messy.

I, for one, updated everything again this morning, after seeing two stra= nge pieces of mail in my AOL box that came from unknown origins.  

And around campus there's a strange mail-paranoia building, everyone is=20= treating every unrecognized address or piece of mail as if it were going to=20= explode.  I don't even download things sent to me by students via our c= omputer labs, since they are a 7th Avenue hotbed of infections.

I hope everyone out there is practicing safe-sending and that you all re= main free from invasion.

All the best,

--John
--part1_14f.298594ee.2d50fff0_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 11:50:32 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13GoWA03493 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:50:32 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <39.43738c49.2d512269@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:12:25 EST Subject: Allen's "Death and Fame" (for Esme) To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_39.43738c49.2d512269_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_39.43738c49.2d512269_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Esme, Many thanks for the thoughts and the excellent recommendations. I'm using the "Collected Poems" at the moment. But I do know the photo on that cover though, and people can see it here: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060930837.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg It's an excellent picture, I think. I met Allen only once, when we shared time on a radio show. He talked to me at some length and, even then, still with real excitement, about how much Jack loved and used Melville and about his own influences and about the fights they had about revision. He was a gracious and charming man. Since you mention it, though, I do believe I will offer the class some of Allen's later works at the semester's end. Incidentally, I do like Robert Creeley's Forward to that book. Tomorrow we read "Kaddish." All the best, --John --part1_39.43738c49.2d512269_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Esme,

Many thanks for the thoughts and the excellent recommendations.  I'= m using the "Collected Poems" at the moment.  But I do know the photo o= n that cover though, and people can see it here:=20

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060930837.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

It's an excellent picture, I think.

I met Allen only once, when we shared time on a radio show.  He tal= ked to me at some length and, even then, still with real excitement, about h= ow much Jack loved and used Melville and about his own influences and about=20= the fights they had about revision.  He was a gracious and charming man= .

Since you mention it, though, I do believe I will offer the class some o= f Allen's later works at the semester's end.  Incidentally, I do like R= obert Creeley's Forward to that book.

Tomorrow we read "Kaddish."

All the best,

--John

=20

--part1_39.43738c49.2d512269_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 14:23:15 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13JNF211136 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:23:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040203184909.41208.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: A close reading of Catcher To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040203041246.30104@mail.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > As some people may recall, I went through a > re-reading jag a few weeks > ago of the four JDS books, At the outset, did you intend to re-read all four books? If so, in which order, and why. > > Then, later in the night (after the fight with > Stradlater), Holden goes > in Ackley's room and finds him looking all spooky > with the acne medicine > on his bed. He asks Ackley if he can sleep over > while Ackley's roommate > is away. But at this point, a few pages later, > "Herb Gale" has instead > become "Ely," and is mentioned as "Ely" several > times. > > I wonder if this has anything to do with the story, "The Boy in the People Shooting Hat." There, the original fight with Stradlater occurs, but the main character is named Bobby and the girl is June. Perhaps the Ackley scene also is in that story, and when JDS incorporated all this into The Catcher, he decided to change Ackley's roommate's name to Herb Gale, but failed to continue far enough into the manuscript to catch the later occurrences of "Ely." Just a thought. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 14:23:14 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13JNEK11125 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:23:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007801c3ea7b$55db0580$49a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: , References: <1a9.1fa587b8.2d50e3dc@aol.com> Subject: where can I join the barbarians? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:29:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... But we are readers here [...] this is one of the things I love ...' and, '... I agree that we are a list of readers [...] that's what I enjoy most ...' That's it. That's why, in this friendly & tolerant group I've always had the uneasy feeling of being an imposter. I read about a hundredth as much as most of you (a thousandth, in John O's case) - certainly not with the enthusiasm, passion even, that I think I recognise in so many others. For me, reading is the dependable soporific in the last half hour of the day; or, sometimes, a useful - if envious - casing of the joint for purloinable material. Fundamentally, though, it's no more than a way of avoiding writing: looks respectable enough - but you don't fool yourself. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 14:23:13 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13JND111119 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:23:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402031711.i13HBgMP026564@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Alexander's Companions Ride Again and Again and Again Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:11:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John O., you say, in your post below that your motives are merely to discuss the literature but in your "brief explanation" a careful reader finds, "When I recently offered (and re-offered) Daniel a list of titles and asked him to name specifically which works he had read so that we might discuss them in detail, I did not do it because I think that this is a comprehensive list of "Beat literature" or because I believe that reading them all is a prerequisite for any discussion or even in order to demonstrate how much of the work I have read myself. I did it for a completely different reason. I think Daniel is lying. I don't think he has read this work. Or perhaps he read a bit of it once a long time ago and no longer recalls any of it. Because I see no evidence in anything in he has written here that he is in any way familiar with any of the specific texts or their details and the only conclusion I can reach is that he is simply lying about having read them or knowing what's in them." And then you claim below that your motives are pure as the wind driven snow, you are just a lover of reading. You say I have made claims that I don't back up with quotes and you fail to remember all your un-supported claims. I can list them all if you like? Bearing your bundle of staves and axes, you draw up a list, and demand me to name names, to what purpose? To expose me as a liar because you don't agree with anything I said so I must be a liar, so in the interest of Truth you ask, nay, demand that I name names or you won't play because I don't back up what I say so I am not credible yet your failure to provide quotes in direct support of your claims do not cast doubt upon your credibility. I asked you to quote away, yet you haven't, I asked you if Billy Burroughs actually used the word "neo-fascist" in his writings yet you don't answer that question. Again, it is me again Before The Omlor. John, Johnny, Juan Moco, My claims aren't and never were based solely upon texts. They are Based upon what Beats write, say, and do as witnessed by themselves and others. I always thought that Beat was about people, which includes literature -Fiction, pseudo-fiction, poetry and non-fiction but more importantly it included people and their deeds. Both Beats and Hippies were unhappy with the "establishment" enough to attack it in word, song, and deed. They both reacted in very similar ways, sexual expression, a claim of Beauty and Love that was very subjective; they 'dug' on some dirty guy reading a muddy book found in the culvert - see they are loving but I remember something about rolling drunks in the subway too. Both hippies and Beats placed a lot of stock in pharmacology to provide inspiration. Both groups borrowed heavily from other cultures fusing them into a non-continuous hodge-podge. Both basically did what they wanted without a whole lot of regard for the "unhip" non "hepcats". Both groups made up their own morality as they went. Sure they didn't make it up from the thin air, they borrowed from all over they place, hence some becoming leaders of Hippie demonstrations and others becoming "gun nuts". Now John O. define Hippie, define Beat, to include a list of those who you consider to be beat and Hippie, list what you consider is the Beat canon of writings, list what you consider to be the Hippie canon of writing, list what you consider to be the values of the beats, and list what you consider to be the values of Hippies, list people you know who are Beat, and list people who you know who are hippies. And finally, provide quotes to support all your claims in your past posts and lists of real living breathing Beats who show those quotes in action. John, when you have done this I will gladly list all the Beat literature I have read. Yes this is place to discuss our reading and I too enjoy that but it isn't a classroom despite the fact that I do expect to learn something around here. Daniel First, let me say that I am continually amused by the fact that suggesting someone carefully and thoroughly read the works they are discussing is seen as a provocative or presumptuous or even hostile act, especially within a community of self-professed readers. Since when is asking for specifics and a working familiarity with the words an irrational or impolite request? Second, I am not looking for certainty in any of this, Daniel. Just reassurance that we are talking about the same works and that we have both read them. And once again, I get none from this post of yours. And once again I am not surprised. Let's review. I mentioned and parodied the Beat literature that I was currently teaching. I even named the specific authors right off the bat. You mistakenly and ahistorically conflated that literature and those authors with hippies and communes. I pointed out specific texts and historical events that belied that conflation and asked if you had read the specific literature in question. I have still not seen an answer to that question. Instead, I get a story about a friend who jammed with Janis Joplin in San Francisco? And is there any reason why this should not confirm my initial suspicions? If you've read the works I am talking about and want to discuss them in detail, fine. Let's go. If not, admit it and we can move on. Today my students and I tore through Ginsberg's words, his invocations and his cries and his verses and his Whitmanesque insistence and his Blakean visions and his breathless passion. As William Carlos Williams has said of Allen, "Poets are damned but they are not blind, they see withh the eyes of the angels. This poet sees through and all around the horrors he partakes of in the very intimate details of his poem. He avoids nothing but experiences it to the hilt. He contains it. Claims it as is own -- and, we believe, laughs at it and has the time and affrontery to love a fellow of his choice and record that love in a well made poem." It was an hour when the students saw poetry as something that could rouse and excite and provoke thought and still inspire with beauty. And it was worth the price of admission. Rail on, Daniel, against the "texts" and my "world." But we are readers here. And this is one of the things I love. All the best, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 14:23:15 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13JNFZ11131 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:23:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00a501c3ea7d$258e4c00$49a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <39.43738c49.2d512269@aol.com> Subject: Re: Allen's "Death and Fame" (for Esme) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:42:50 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... It's an excellent picture, I think ...' You should know, John. I wish it didn't make me think of the dreaded Salman Rushdie emerging from a downtown lavatory. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 15:59:45 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13KxjB16217 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:59:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:50:31 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Message-ID: <20040203205031.GA15600@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. It's also off the topic of Salinger. Bail out now, if you offend easily.] On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:03:14AM -0500, James Rovira wrote: [regarding MoveOn political adversiting] > The ads are generally incendiary and grossly biased. There's no great > sacrifice of virtue in refusing to air them. I may be ignorant of pop culture, but I am most definitely not ignorant of either politics or the culture of slime. Of COURSE these are incendiary advertisements ... they are POLITICAL, for god's sake! Being "biased" is what a political ad is about! For too many years, the Democrats in the United States seemed afraid to say anything too strongly, as if speaking up would make them unpopular. And they were roundly trounced, often, by trash-talking opponents. You don't get a political message across, these days, by mincing across the stage. What did you EXPECT from political ads that (finally, for once) take a strong stand on the left? For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws live. They have tiptoed around, afraid of offending, afraid to take any but the safest of stances. But George Bush and his cronies have pushed things entirely too far. People are finally coming to realize how many lies they have been fed. Bill Clinton, who was pilloried almost non-stop during his eight years in office, lied about a stupid sexual liaison, but he didn't get anyone killed by his idiotic moves with Monica Lewinsky. (I'm not defending Clinton. I don't like him. He was a liar and a fraud and a weasel. But he was not evil. He did not bankrupt the Treasury. He did not bully the world. He did not unilaterally reject treaties. He did not suspend the right to a speedy trial. He did not prevent a person accused of a crime from confronting his accuser. At worst, Clinton was hapless. The opposition spent a lot of money trying to convict him ... think Whitewater ... Filegate ... Monica ... when the real issue was that Republicans in Congress resented that Clinton occupied the Oval Office, and tried their best to turn him out of that office. It didn't help matters, of course, that he was his own worst enemy.) Given that the Bush Corporation gets its message out at will, by way of a press corps too cowed to ask hard questions (lest reporters find themselves banned from press briefings), then it is to be expected that the opposition is going to raise pointed questions. If you rewind to LBJ's run for the presidency, you may recall the famous commercial of a little girl playing with a daisy, which morphed into the image of a mushroom cloud ... the message, of course, being that voters had to exercise caution in electing Barry Goldwater, who (it was implied) might be a bit trigger-happy. There was not much that was subtle about that message. But it cut to the core argument, which was: "Do you trust Barry Goldwater's finger on the big red button?" Should you want to review some of the more notorious ads from the age of television, see this web site: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/ad.archive/ It is unfortunate that BEER commercials are acceptable television discourse, but paid political messages are suddenly not. Do you think the networks will turn down Republican political messages that aim at the Democratic presidential ticket? Let's wait and see how long it takes for the dirty tricks to start seeping out of this White House. > I think the base critique offered by the ads is valid, but comparisons > between the US and Pakistan is freaking ridiculous...unless you've > never been anywhere outside the US, of course. It's not about Pakistan, Jim. Think abstractly. Extrapolate from what you know: It is about the politics of fear and the culture of repression. Pakistan -- or whatever the country of the guy in the advertisement -- is only a stand-in, a straw man. The point is that, ideally, a viewer in the U.S. will probably nod absently at infringement of civil liberties in some country on the other side of the globe ... but may be jolted to hear that the real complaint is in this country, this administration. I attended a computer security briefing not long ago, where the FBI and local law enforcement gave presentations about what they do regarding computer crime. The FBI assured us that they had no intention of abusing the carte blanche they had been given by the USA PATRIOT act. Few people in the room believed them, and the agents were visibly discomfited by people who spoke up with skepticism. (And at a prior meeting with federal law enforcement, when the presenter made a big deal about how we have to trust Washington with our privacy and our civil liberties, and how we have to understand that Washington would NEVER do anything to violate those liberties, I asked this question: "Why would we trust you blindly, when your agency has demonstrated, time and again, that it tramples on civil liberties if it has the chance?" He didn't -- he couldn't -- defend his agency. Rather, he sputtered and finally, lamely, answered, "Well, we're just asking you to have faith that those abuses won't happen again." Uh, su-u-u-ure they won't.) Then what do you know ... the very day after the security briefing with the FBI, newspapers carried a detailed article about how the FBI was using its new-found PATRIOT powers to infiltrate protest groups, such as anti-war activists. The premise was that the FBI were chasing terrorists. The revolting part is that in the culture of repression, a person who stands up for peace is automatically equated with terrorism. That is wrong. And that is bullshit. And someone has to stand up and say so. The TSA, which operates check-in security at U.S. airports, maintains a "no-fly" list now -- you know that, don't you? The argument is that such a list will keep suspected terrorists out of airplanes. (Some of us who are alert might ask: If you know the identities of people who are dangerous enough to be kept off airplanes, shouldn't those dangerous people be taken into custody rather than be on some LIST somewhere so we prevent them from flying? Are they dangerous only when boarding a plane, but harmless elsewhere?) Oddly enough, a number of people active in protesting Bush policies have found themselves on the list. When last I checked, they had no way to get themselves off the list. That is what the politics of fear gets you. That is what a culture of repression becomes. You may be happy to live that way, Jim. I am not. It's not about a head-to-head comparison between the U.S. and Pakistan, Jim. You are missing the point. That ad is about a description of life under siege, which viewers might reflexively assume is taking place Out There Somewhere ... only to have the creator of the piece say: Hey, guess what? It's not Out There Somewhere. It's about abuses happening at home -- so, the commercial suggests, how about getting off your ass and doing something to change it? > This is > all very silly and not the type of political discourse that actually > disseminates useful knowledge or ways of handling knowledge. This is either a naive or stupid conclusion. And since I have dealt with you and know you are not stupid, I can only conclude that you are being naive. If you think the party in power is not going to release the kind of slime that makes MoveOn ads look gentle by comparison, then you are kidding yourself. They have done it before. They will do it again. And it will not be subtle, and it will not be sly, and it will not be the result of a creative competition, like the "bushin30seconds.com" event was. You can be sure that the current White House administration will do everything possible to cling to power (though I like to imagine that there would be something of a French Revolution if the Supreme Court stepped in to re-appoint Bush to a second term, as they did after he lost the last election). We live in an age of dirty tricks, and have for a long time now. We live in a time of political uncertainty. I regret that an opposition voice cannot buy time on a television station to speak. You can be sure that BushCo. will have no problem airing ads designed to undermine the Democratic nominee. (Hey, Republicans did it four years ago, and eight years ago, and twelve years ago, and sixteen years ago, and so on. Finally, the Democratic opposition is catching on to how the game is played. Finally, the lesson of LBJ's "daisy" ad is sinking in.) I have no doubt that Karl Rove (sometimes known as "Bush's Brain") is strategizing RIGHT NOW regarding how to best launch devastating attacks on whoever is nominated by the Democratic party. Read the new book, THE PRICE OF LOYALTY, if you want to hear about the inner workings of the present White House, from the perspective of one former Cabinet member. (DISCLAIMER: I am still reading it, but the mind boggles, even part-way through, at how things happen in the present White House.) I do not like the direction this country is taking, and a majority apparently agrees (but we were thwarted by the Supreme Court, which chose to award the presidency to the loser of the election). You may not want to hear what an opposition group says, and you are entitled to ignore it or disagree or ridicule it. But someone should stand up and say that this squelching of an opposing voice is wrong. That is what the MoveOn people are doing. Don't you think the Republicans will go for the jugular, later this year? This is what passes for "political discourse" in 2004. If it's a dirty game, you have to get dirty to play. Otherwise, you just get a bullet to the back of the head, and it's game over, Jim. [Obligatory Salinger Reference: He is a registered Republican. I verified it for myself by reading the list of registered voters tacked to the door of Cornish's Town Hall. But I don't know how he votes, nor do I care.] --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 15:59:45 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13Kxji16218 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:59:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:53:57 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A close reading of Catcher Message-ID: <20040203205357.GB15600@panix.com> References: <20040203041246.30104@mail.panix.com> <20040203184909.41208.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040203184909.41208.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:49:09AM -0800, City Cabin wrote: > At the outset, did you intend to re-read all four > books? If so, in which order, and why. No, I intended to read Franny only. Then of course I continued into Zooey. Then Raise High.... And then Seymour, as if it were dessert. Then I read Nine Stories. And only after all that, Catcher. No rhyme or reason. Purely delight. > I wonder if this has anything to do with the story, > "The Boy in the People Shooting Hat." There, the > original fight with Stradlater occurs, but the main > character is named Bobby and the girl is June. > Perhaps the Ackley scene also is in that story, and > when JDS incorporated all this into The Catcher, he > decided to change Ackley's roommate's name to Herb > Gale, but failed to continue far enough into the > manuscript to catch the later occurrences of "Ely." > > Just a thought. That is a good one. I don't have a copy of that story, though. I've never even SEEN that one! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:26 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhQ023394 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402032102.i13L2DAF022408@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: A close reading of Catcher Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:02:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org -----Original Message----- From: City Cabin [mailto:citycabn@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 11:49 AM To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A close reading of Catcher --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > As some people may recall, I went through a > re-reading jag a few weeks > ago of the four JDS books, At the outset, did you intend to re-read all four books? If so, in which order, and why. > > Then, later in the night (after the fight with > Stradlater), Holden goes > in Ackley's room and finds him looking all spooky > with the acne medicine > on his bed. He asks Ackley if he can sleep over > while Ackley's roommate > is away. But at this point, a few pages later, > "Herb Gale" has instead > become "Ely," and is mentioned as "Ely" several > times. > > I wonder if this has anything to do with the story, "The Boy in the People Shooting Hat." There, the original fight with Stradlater occurs, but the main character is named Bobby and the girl is June. Perhaps the Ackley scene also is in that story, and when JDS incorporated all this into The Catcher, he decided to change Ackley's roommate's name to Herb Gale, but failed to continue far enough into the manuscript to catch the later occurrences of "Ely." Just a thought. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:27 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhRO23418 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:27 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 03 Feb 2004 13:25:51 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 03 Feb 2004 13:25:51 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 402011D7.ADC2.D5C9.000] Content-Identifier: 0300B402011DF004 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <402011D7.ADC2.D5C9.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 03 Feb 2004 13:25:51 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, tim@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org man, i was hoping this was a report on the following news headline: "George Bush pops out of Janet Jackson's blouse at Half-time of Super Bowl" -mike >>> tim@roughdraft.org 02/03/04 01:00PM >>> [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. It's also off the topic of Salinger. Bail out now, if you offend easily.] - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:26 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhQG23403 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402032102.i13L25Xw022377@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_where_can_I_join_the_barbarians=3F__The_e?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?nfant_terribl=E9_=27square=27_made_round?= Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:02:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie, I guess I need to look for the right places to place my feet. Not looking at my feet, mind you, just avoiding the mud, the snoozing winos, and the occasional dog droppings. But you are right, it can be an intellectual intoxicant, living vicariously through someone else's groove. Talking about mind candy, I have taken up the watching of a BBC comedy called "Waiting on God" (I think that is what they call it, I always miss the opening credits). Have you seen this? They had a good chuckle out of me when they called Ernie a "Manic-depressive pseudo macho queen" or something like that, I had no idea that Ernie was a rectum stretcher. Oh, concerning the rich like John, Ernesto had something to say on the matter in "The Snows of Kilimanjaro", "The rich were dull and they drank too much, or they played too much backgammon. They were dull and they were repetitious." So it seems to me that many of the rich and poor may have a lot in common. Daniel Fundamentally, though, it's no more than a way of avoiding writing: looks respectable enough - but you don't fool yourself. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:27 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhRx23411 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402032112.i13LC7ne024969@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: A close reading of Catcher Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:12:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I met him in the garment district in Manhattan, He used to go by "Ely" his middle name, Elijah Mohammad, back in his school prep days. He said that it went better with his beret. Now he goes by Herbert E. M. Gale Senior, no shit, I saw it just like that on his name tag. Daniel I wonder if this has anything to do with the story, "The Boy in the People Shooting Hat." There, the original fight with Stradlater occurs, but the main character is named Bobby and the girl is June. Perhaps the Ackley scene also is in that story, and when JDS incorporated all this into The Catcher, he decided to change Ackley's roommate's name to Herb Gale, but failed to continue far enough into the manuscript to catch the later occurrences of "Ely." Just a thought. --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:28 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhS423424 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <12c.3aeb2abd.2d517cb5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:37:41 EST Subject: Re: where can I join the barbarians? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12c.3aeb2abd.2d517cb5_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_12c.3aeb2abd.2d517cb5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scottie, Speaking only for myself, I do not read to avoid writing. In fact, whatever it says about me, reading for me is more important than writing. All the best, --John --part1_12c.3aeb2abd.2d517cb5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scottie,

Speaking only for myself, I do not read to avoid writing.

In fact, whatever it says about me, reading for me is more important tha= n writing.

All the best,

--John
--part1_12c.3aeb2abd.2d517cb5_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 17:43:27 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i13MhR623419 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:43:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <402015FB.1060202@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:43:23 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own References: <20040203205031.GA15600@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040203205031.GA15600@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org That was a silly response, Tim. I already said I agreed with the -substance- of the critique (I think the words were, the "base critique offered by the ads was valid"), but that the -form- of the critique was hardly productive. So that means I'm bothered by all the stuff you mention, I don't like several elements of the Patriot Act, I really, really don't like the ever increasing deficit spending, but more than that, I really don't like the cartoonish handling these serious issues get in mainstream media. I see MoveOn's ads as being part of the problem, not the solution. I don't see how left wing distortions and lies are somehow better than or balancing of right wing lies, and I certainly don't see -any- political ads that are similar for the right. Yes, Bush gets his 1 hr speeches on televsion, and then every pundit in the nation gets his 1 hr of critique. There's been a lot of it, you know. For example, it's not "Bush's" deficit, Tim, as the winning ad claimed. That's stupid. The current national debt began with the Vietnam war, was greatly exacerbated recently due to a recession that really began at the end of Clinton's administration (no fault to him -- recessions are just a part of our economic cycle), and greatly exacerbated by the _US public's_ demand for retaliation for 9-11, which ultimately took the form of a war in Afghanistan. There's a serious move right now to push more and more US jobs overseas, something that's been made that much easier by NAFTA -- supported by a whole line of Presidents from both parties before it finally passed. But this is a new element in this recession that's making this recovery jobless...that's a new situation. The left in this case doesn't want to admit that Bush had almost unanimous Congressional support for the Afghan war and very strong support for the Iraqi war, which accomplished something that needed to happen anyhow, if not necessarily in the way that it did happen. Congress approved these wars. There was more debate about the Iraqi war than the Afghan war, but overwhelming Congressional approval at that time was reflective of a generally supportive US public. So it's not Bush's deficit. It's OURS -- the deficit we want in exchange for the right to revenge and a somewhat restored feeling of safety. If MoveOn had any substance, they'd be addressing that. But you don't win points by pointing the finger at the people, and it's an election year, so let's lie and blame Bush. Meanwhile, the real problems remain and, for that reason, will be handled in exactly the same by the next guy, whoever he is. Bush has been making all the same decisions -anyone- in his situation would have to make, including compromises in privacy for the sake of security. Every time someone says we should have known ahead of time about 9-11 and acted to prevent it, that someone pushes the government to gather more information from any source possible. When MoveOn acts as if it recognizes this, then I'll take them credibly. THEN we'll see some real dialog about the real compromises we need to make for the sake of security vs. the ones we're not willing to make. When the Feds say "trust me" people are willing to listen these days because they're afraid. That's not Bush's fault. The Feds are all we have protecting us, and the left has nothing that even looks like a security plan, just blather about principle that no one disagrees with. The principles aren't at stake, Tim. It's negotiating these principles for security in a world that's suddenly more dangerous. This is a big adjustment that takes time and lots of dialog. That's why the comparisons to Pakistan are stupid, Tim. No, it doesn't matter that it's Pakistan. But the comparisons ignore the root of the problem -- people are still scared, and want to be made to feel safe. How do you address that? Yes, there's going to be mudslinging on both sides come Presidential Election time. Par for the course. It won't be Republican biased mud slinging, though. Everyone will get their throw. All the Dems are attacking Bush during the primaries right now; some of them on the issues you raise, but I think I'd agree with you that it's not enough. There's no right wing conspiracy in the media, nor is there a left wing consipiracy -- at least, none of this works out the way you're describing. When the left has leaders that are promoting the message you want, then you'll hear it in the media. If they don't, that's not Bush's fault. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 19:44:57 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i140iv029284 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:44:57 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <5b.4654c045.2d5190b0@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:02:56 EST Subject: A PSA at the end of the show To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_5b.4654c045.2d5190b0_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_5b.4654c045.2d5190b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, As those of you still reading can see, the discussion concerning Beat literature has disintegrated into vagaries, repetitions, and paralysis. So, as it ends, I did just want to offer this word to those out there who are curious. Please be assured that the literature in question, the work of poets like Ginsberg and Snyder and Corso and Ferlinghetti and Rexroth and novelists like Kerouac and Burroughs and the others, is far more diverse and rich and complex and interesting than Daniel makes it sound in his cartoonish caricatures. It includes the rhythms of big city jazz and the open highway and the rhythms of the Sierra Nevadas and Tangiers, it includes a passionate reworking of the language of Whitman and Blake and Keats and Melville and many others, and, perhaps most importantly, it includes serious discussions of spirituality and of language and of writing and loving and living and dying. Don't let the petty political nonsense of this sadly minimalizing discussion deter you from reading this extraordinarily lively and provocative and moving work, from experiencing it in all its variations and in all its traditions. Spend time with these poems and these novels and you will find yourself well rewarded. Ignore us and read. Always, --John --part1_5b.4654c045.2d5190b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,

As those of you still reading can see, the discussion concerning Beat li= terature has disintegrated into vagaries, repetitions, and paralysis.

So, as it ends, I did just want to offer this word to those out there wh= o are curious.  Please be assured that the literature in question, the=20= work of poets like Ginsberg and Snyder and Corso and Ferlinghetti and Rexrot= h and novelists like Kerouac and Burroughs and the others, is far more diver= se and rich and complex and interesting than Daniel makes it sound in his ca= rtoonish caricatures.  It includes the rhythms of big city jazz and the= open highway and the rhythms of the Sierra Nevadas and Tangiers, it include= s a passionate reworking of the language of Whitman and Blake and Keats and=20= Melville and many others, and, perhaps most importantly, it includes serious= discussions of spirituality and of language and of writing and loving and l= iving and dying.

Don't let the petty political nonsense of this sadly minimalizing discus= sion deter you from reading this extraordinarily lively and provocative and=20= moving work, from experiencing it in all its variations and in all its tradi= tions.  Spend time with these poems and these novels and you will find=20= yourself well rewarded.

Ignore us and read.

Always,

--John

--part1_5b.4654c045.2d5190b0_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 19:44:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i140iu929270 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:44:56 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <186.24b3b4e3.2d518008@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:51:52 EST Subject: Re: Alexander's Companions Ride Again and Again and Again To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_186.24b3b4e3.2d518008_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_186.24b3b4e3.2d518008_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, 732 words and still no sign at all that you've read any of the specific texts in question. Not a word, not a line, not a single detail, not a specific moment, nothing. I see no reason to change my original conclusion. But I'll keep waiting. Meanwhile we get the following generalities, which, it turns out, could refer to any one of a number of literary movements spanning the centuries: "unhappy with the 'establishment' enough to attack it in word, song, and deed" Not *entirely* true about the Beats, (Kerouac does very little actual "attacking," for instance), but certainly true about a number of other literary movements throughout history, including Modernism and the Romantics. "They both reacted in very similar ways, sexual expression, a claim of Beauty and Love that was very subjective..." Romantics, Moderns, and more than a few others... "placed a lot of stock in pharmacology to provide inspiration." See above. "borrowed heavily from other cultures..." See above. And still no reading. And still no texts to discuss. And so I wait. --John --part1_186.24b3b4e3.2d518008_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel,

732 words and still no sign at all that you've read any of the specific=20= texts in question.  Not a word, not a line, not a single detail, not a=20= specific moment, nothing.  

I see no reason to change my original conclusion.

But I'll keep waiting.

Meanwhile we get the following generalities, which, it turns out, could=20= refer to any one of a number of literary movements spanning the centuries:

"unhappy with the 'establishment' enough to attack it in word, song, and= deed"

Not *entirely* true about the Beats, (Kerouac does very little actual "a= ttacking," for instance), but certainly true about a number of other literar= y movements throughout history, including Modernism and the Romantics.

"They both reacted in very similar ways, sexual expression, a claim of B= eauty and Love that was very subjective..."

Romantics, Moderns, and more than a few others...

"placed a lot of stock in pharmacology to provide inspiration."

See above.=20

"borrowed heavily from other cultures..."

See above.

And still no reading.

And still no texts to discuss.

And so I wait.

--John
--part1_186.24b3b4e3.2d518008_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 19:44:57 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i140iv629283 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:44:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402032321.i13NLfYC026994@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Cornish guards its own Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:21:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i13NLjb25337 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Mike, I thought you would have be weaned by now. We had a different names for the Democratic party leaders and members in New Mexico years ago, Patrón and peoné. It seems that the names have changed to protect the guilty. Daniel man, i was hoping this was a report on the following news headline: "George Bush pops out of Janet Jackson's blouse at Half-time of Super Bowl" -mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 19:44:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i140iuo29273 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:44:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402032309.i13N9dNk024555@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:09:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. If it does, rub isopropyl alcohol and iodine on all infected areas, read a couple of Beat poems while chanting "yes, I am Hip".] Yes, the answer to trash talking is more trash talk not censorship man (imagine Tommy Chong's voice). The left is taking a stand? They are going to kill the knee pad market now with a flood of used low priced Chinese imports (knee pads not missile technology), you know. Tim, I can't believe you are denigrating "mincing", where is your toleration? A Democrat afraid of saying anything strongly? Now you got me thinking of Manhattan as a fallout bunker, holy crap, what party is Carville a member of? Democrats as visitors in Mansions? Like Rockefeller, Kennedy, Samuel Waskol, Betty McCollum, Ted turner, not bothering to list all the Hollywood Mansion-aires? Yea Tim, Bush is just cranking out the lies. The Democrats and liberals only trade (sorry state manage) in Truth, oops, truth. Clinton didn't get any one killed? Oh, can anyone say Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti, and how many cruise missiles does it take to cure a head ache? Liar, fraud, weasel? What exactly does it take to be evil now days? And what does "evil" actually mean to a lefty? He did not bankrupt the treasury? Yea it was Bill and the Democrats who hammered out all those spending bills through the 90's. Yea, Bill didn't have to pay the 9/11 tab because he had terrorism in a bottle, oh, wait a minute, Usama who? And the world trade center first bombing? Kobar Towers? The Cole? The African embassies? But it was in the bottle right? Right?. White Water, Filegate etc did result in scores of convictions or were those all unworthy of prosecution? Getting his message out at will? Tim, a reader of the NY Times, says that. Thanks for the good laugh. Oh, lest we forget Government funded PBS and NPR. So, move on's dirty tricks being turned down, raises panic in the streets that the White House is going to get a jump on them. "The sky is falling the sky is falling, remember we told you it would, over three years ago, remember? Remember? REMEMBER?" "Politics of fear and the culture of repression", priceless Tim, all that and not a single giggle, come on, I know it's not the sixties anymore, what happen to all the love man? Tim, poor poor Tim, all a'scared and culturally depressed, (you mean repressed man) yah yah repressed. Yea, tell The Man were not taking it any more, What's it to you man if I want to sleep on the sidewalk in Times Square and roll drunks in the subway? Yea, the FBI has cart Blanche concerning the Patriot act, there are no controls and no judges over seeing the whole thing, wait a minute, Tim, can you use a little abstract thinking and tell the whole story? Or is that the way you "extrapolate"? Tim, who is amazed that abuses happen whenever there are people involved but some how is silent concerning academic abuses? Tim wants the Democrats back in office running health care, hey, abuses won't happen. Tim, I find it interesting that you know about abuses in the FBI, how did you come by this knowledge? And all those abuses you are referring to are never addressed right? That is why you were so afraid to confront those FBI agents right? Because you are sooooo afraid of them, since they are so dead set on repressing you culturally. Those damm cops are so corrupt, we need to hold them to some sort of standards, and what standards should those be Tim? Who decides? Yea, all those protest groups are about nothing but peace, and you talk about Bush lying. We had some of your peaceful protesters bussed in to Colorado Springs several months ago. If I remember right they blocked traffic, trashed cars, trashed property and homes around the park where the protest took place. Several of the protesters were arrested and were members of several anarchy groups who have been committing violence through out the country. So Tim, is it OK for the FBI to infiltrate the KKK? or the Hell's Angels? or Suérño 13? or the Gangster Disciples? But you have all the information, you are fully informed as to what the FBI knows, so we stoop to your edumacated rhetoric free conclusions. Can you possibly imagine an individual who is not actively committing a crime but may warrant an entry on a watch list? Say informants who are members of criminal organizations, individuals who have strong and known sympathies for criminal organizations, individuals who are known to have committed crimes but are being watched in the hope that they lead investigators to bigger players. It seems what we have here is a failure of imagination. All those subways, trains, Busses, ships, and aircraft moving about the country without one of them blowing up yet doesn't count for something and if the day comes that one does, there will be Tim with arm outstretched index finger straight and true pointing right at the FBI. Yea all those out spoken individuals have been mild as sheep their whole lives above reproach, why blameless and fault free, it's those dirty coppers I tell you. Is the FBI watching? Yes, and we should watch them, if they step out of line then we bring incrimination but Tim with his stash in his sock drawer is so quick to jump the gun, hmmm. Tim says, "You may be happy to live that way, Jim. I am not." and if we disagree Tim, who decides? Oh, I don't know, the people maybe? Tim, in his vast and superior intellect knows, doubt free, that move on is right and True and that the Pakistan ad is not a lie but the undeniable, obvious Truth. Bush is the devil incarnate and move on are the creative keepers of the Eternal Light. Yea, all the Republican ads will be made out of shredded up dollars piled in random heaps. Talk about dehumanizing your opponent. "Bush lost the election", yea that is what happened and they call themselves "move on", again another good shit eating grin on my face, Tim, thanks. Tim complains about the Republicans going for the Jugular, all the while flashing his long pearly canines, arched back and claws extended. Jerome votes Republican Tim, that is why he is so fond of people shooting hats, an excellent opportunity for him and Holden too put bullets in the back of peoples heads. Now every time I think of Tim, I will hear that Wizard of Oz witch riding the bicycle music going through my head, doo du doo du do doooa, doo du doo du do doooa. Jim, that green face with that long noise and long crooked fingers reaching out, his oppressed sleeve hanging raggedly downward, "and your little dog too". Let's just hope that Tim doesn't qualify for a handgun permit in NYC. Otherwise, I would think, New Jersey would seem too close for comfort. "French Revolution" Jim, you scary oppressive Republican. You know, if he doesn't have a gun they will surround your house and sing out of bull horns "All we are saying, is give peace a chance" until you run out of food and water. Maybe by that time, hopefully, they will have that bullet for the back of your head. Daniel I may be ignorant of pop culture, but I am most definitely not ignorant of either politics or the culture of slime. Of COURSE these are incendiary advertisements ... they are POLITICAL, for god's sake! Being "biased" is what a political ad is about! For too many years, the Democrats in the United States seemed afraid to say anything too strongly, as if speaking up would make them unpopular. And they were roundly trounced, often, by trash-talking opponents. You don't get a political message across, these days, by mincing across the stage. What did you EXPECT from political ads that (finally, for once) take a strong stand on the left? For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws live. They have tiptoed around, afraid of offending, afraid to take any but the safest of stances. But George Bush and his cronies have pushed things entirely too far. People are finally coming to realize how many lies they have been fed. Bill Clinton, who was pilloried almost non-stop during his eight years in office, lied about a stupid sexual liaison, but he didn't get anyone killed by his idiotic moves with Monica Lewinsky. (I'm not defending Clinton. I don't like him. He was a liar and a fraud and a weasel. But he was not evil. He did not bankrupt the Treasury. He did not bully the world. He did not unilaterally reject treaties. He did not suspend the right to a speedy trial. He did not prevent a person accused of a crime from confronting his accuser. At worst, Clinton was hapless. The opposition spent a lot of money trying to convict him ... think Whitewater ... Filegate ... Monica ... when the real issue was that Republicans in Congress resented that Clinton occupied the Oval Office, and tried their best to turn him out of that office. It didn't help matters, of course, that he was his own worst enemy.) Given that the Bush Corporation gets its message out at will, by way of a press corps too cowed to ask hard questions (lest reporters find themselves banned from press briefings), then it is to be expected that the opposition is going to raise pointed questions. If you rewind to LBJ's run for the presidency, you may recall the famous commercial of a little girl playing with a daisy, which morphed into the image of a mushroom cloud ... the message, of course, being that voters had to exercise caution in electing Barry Goldwater, who (it was implied) might be a bit trigger-happy. There was not much that was subtle about that message. But it cut to the core argument, which was: "Do you trust Barry Goldwater's finger on the big red button?" Should you want to review some of the more notorious ads from the age of television, see this web site: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/ad.archive/ It is unfortunate that BEER commercials are acceptable television discourse, but paid political messages are suddenly not. Do you think the networks will turn down Republican political messages that aim at the Democratic presidential ticket? Let's wait and see how long it takes for the dirty tricks to start seeping out of this White House. > I think the base critique offered by the ads is valid, but comparisons > between the US and Pakistan is freaking ridiculous...unless you've > never been anywhere outside the US, of course. It's not about Pakistan, Jim. Think abstractly. Extrapolate from what you know: It is about the politics of fear and the culture of repression. Pakistan -- or whatever the country of the guy in the advertisement -- is only a stand-in, a straw man. The point is that, ideally, a viewer in the U.S. will probably nod absently at infringement of civil liberties in some country on the other side of the globe ... but may be jolted to hear that the real complaint is in this country, this administration. I attended a computer security briefing not long ago, where the FBI and local law enforcement gave presentations about what they do regarding computer crime. The FBI assured us that they had no intention of abusing the carte blanche they had been given by the USA PATRIOT act. Few people in the room believed them, and the agents were visibly discomfited by people who spoke up with skepticism. (And at a prior meeting with federal law enforcement, when the presenter made a big deal about how we have to trust Washington with our privacy and our civil liberties, and how we have to understand that Washington would NEVER do anything to violate those liberties, I asked this question: "Why would we trust you blindly, when your agency has demonstrated, time and again, that it tramples on civil liberties if it has the chance?" He didn't -- he couldn't -- defend his agency. Rather, he sputtered and finally, lamely, answered, "Well, we're just asking you to have faith that those abuses won't happen again." Uh, su-u-u-ure they won't.) Then what do you know ... the very day after the security briefing with the FBI, newspapers carried a detailed article about how the FBI was using its new-found PATRIOT powers to infiltrate protest groups, such as anti-war activists. The premise was that the FBI were chasing terrorists. The revolting part is that in the culture of repression, a person who stands up for peace is automatically equated with terrorism. That is wrong. And that is bullshit. And someone has to stand up and say so. The TSA, which operates check-in security at U.S. airports, maintains a "no-fly" list now -- you know that, don't you? The argument is that such a list will keep suspected terrorists out of airplanes. (Some of us who are alert might ask: If you know the identities of people who are dangerous enough to be kept off airplanes, shouldn't those dangerous people be taken into custody rather than be on some LIST somewhere so we prevent them from flying? Are they dangerous only when boarding a plane, but harmless elsewhere?) Oddly enough, a number of people active in protesting Bush policies have found themselves on the list. When last I checked, they had no way to get themselves off the list. That is what the politics of fear gets you. That is what a culture of repression becomes. You may be happy to live that way, Jim. I am not. It's not about a head-to-head comparison between the U.S. and Pakistan, Jim. You are missing the point. That ad is about a description of life under siege, which viewers might reflexively assume is taking place Out There Somewhere ... only to have the creator of the piece say: Hey, guess what? It's not Out There Somewhere. It's about abuses happening at home -- so, the commercial suggests, how about getting off your ass and doing something to change it? > This is > all very silly and not the type of political discourse that actually > disseminates useful knowledge or ways of handling knowledge. This is either a naive or stupid conclusion. And since I have dealt with you and know you are not stupid, I can only conclude that you are being naive. If you think the party in power is not going to release the kind of slime that makes MoveOn ads look gentle by comparison, then you are kidding yourself. They have done it before. They will do it again. And it will not be subtle, and it will not be sly, and it will not be the result of a creative competition, like the "bushin30seconds.com" event was. You can be sure that the current White House administration will do everything possible to cling to power (though I like to imagine that there would be something of a French Revolution if the Supreme Court stepped in to re-appoint Bush to a second term, as they did after he lost the last election). We live in an age of dirty tricks, and have for a long time now. We live in a time of political uncertainty. I regret that an opposition voice cannot buy time on a television station to speak. You can be sure that BushCo. will have no problem airing ads designed to undermine the Democratic nominee. (Hey, Republicans did it four years ago, and eight years ago, and twelve years ago, and sixteen years ago, and so on. Finally, the Democratic opposition is catching on to how the game is played. Finally, the lesson of LBJ's "daisy" ad is sinking in.) I have no doubt that Karl Rove (sometimes known as "Bush's Brain") is strategizing RIGHT NOW regarding how to best launch devastating attacks on whoever is nominated by the Democratic party. Read the new book, THE PRICE OF LOYALTY, if you want to hear about the inner workings of the present White House, from the perspective of one former Cabinet member. (DISCLAIMER: I am still reading it, but the mind boggles, even part-way through, at how things happen in the present White House.) I do not like the direction this country is taking, and a majority apparently agrees (but we were thwarted by the Supreme Court, which chose to award the presidency to the loser of the election). You may not want to hear what an opposition group says, and you are entitled to ignore it or disagree or ridicule it. But someone should stand up and say that this squelching of an opposing voice is wrong. That is what the MoveOn people are doing. Don't you think the Republicans will go for the jugular, later this year? This is what passes for "political discourse" in 2004. If it's a dirty game, you have to get dirty to play. Otherwise, you just get a bullet to the back of the head, and it's game over, Jim. [Obligatory Salinger Reference: He is a registered Republican. I verified it for myself by reading the list of registered voters tacked to the door of Cornish's Town Hall. But I don't know how he votes, nor do I care.] --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 19:53:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i140rsE29785 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:53:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:52:59 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Message-ID: <20040204005259.GA4334@panix.com> References: <200402032309.i13N9dNk024555@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200402032309.i13N9dNk024555@palisade.peterson.af.mil> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 11:09:38PM -0000, Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. If it does, rub > isopropyl alcohol and iodine on all infected areas, read a couple of Beat > poems while chanting "yes, I am Hip".] I have to hand it to you, Daniel, you sure put on a good and amusing show! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 22:13:50 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i143Do505447 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:13:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40206A69.13C71943@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 22:43:37 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! References: <200402032309.i13N9dNk024555@palisade.peterson.af.mil> <20040204005259.GA4334@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: > I have to hand it to you, Daniel, you sure put on a good and amusing show! > > --tim > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 22:17:17 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i143HH705606 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:16:10 -0500 Message-Id: <20040204031610.4304@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <40206A69.13C71943@drew.edu> References: <40206A69.13C71943@drew.edu> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 3, 2004, jrovira@drew.edu said: >One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading >Ferlinghetti.... After some bad peyote. Or perhaps arsenic. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 3 23:24:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i144OIA08668 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:24:18 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <10.3b412c6b.2d51cc92@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 23:18:26 EST Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_10.3b412c6b.2d51cc92_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_10.3b412c6b.2d51cc92_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, Not being a devotee of pop culture, you will not have recognized the logical constructions and rhetorical style of the Springer guest. Daniel, it seems, is a natural. Enjoy it, --John --part1_10.3b412c6b.2d51cc92_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim,

Not being a devotee of pop culture, you will not have recognized the log= ical constructions and rhetorical style of the Springer guest.

Daniel, it seems, is a natural.

Enjoy it,

--John
--part1_10.3b412c6b.2d51cc92_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 08:34:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14DYsV03773 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:34:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4020998F.3558B5BE@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:04:48 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! References: <40206A69.13C71943@drew.edu> <20040204031610.4304@mail.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ah, I don't know. But then, I think Ferlinghetti writes words while, say, Ginsberg writes poetry. I know we owe a lot to F, but I think more because of who he published than what he wrote. Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: > On Tue, Feb 3, 2004, jrovira@drew.edu said: > > >One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading > >Ferlinghetti.... > > After some bad peyote. Or perhaps arsenic. > > --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 08:34:54 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14DYsl03780 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:34:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004101c3eafa$9b8341e0$2ca57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <5b.4654c045.2d5190b0@aol.com> Subject: Re: A PSA at the end of the show Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:40:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I'd forgotten they could stand for other things but those ominous initials sure made my old medical ears prick up (to modify Joe Orton.) John O. led us to believe he was too young to worry about such matters. Then, of course, the obsessional is never too young to worry & the incontinence IS beginning to be a feature. Lists are always a bad sign. Names, book titles, & now rhythms - 'big city jazz ... the open highway [fergodsake] ... the Sierra Nevadas ... Tangiers ...' Gosh, Louis, they sound sumpin. I wonder is this the kind of stuff he feeds his long suffering students? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 09:49:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14Enuw07269 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:49:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:49:55 -0500 From: Omlor@aol.com To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A PSA at the end of the show MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <65E77251.522A4F9E.00010341@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 131.247.200.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie, Sorry a "list" of four examples disturbed you. I'll try and be more sensitive to your delicate rhetorical sensibilities. Leaving softly as a night nurse, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:36 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBam15173 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041618.i14GIVHp004889@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:18:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org It's the new Beat John, Times Square and San Francisco are tired and worn out, it's all about the trailer park now and "cleaning out closets". Yea Pop culture, we ain't all school clever and what not. Johnny -O, thinking in terms of "style" again. Daniel Tim, Not being a devotee of pop culture, you will not have recognized the logical constructions and rhetorical style of the Springer guest. Daniel, it seems, is a natural. Enjoy it, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:35 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBZ215167 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:35 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:08:23 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:08:23 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 402118F1.ADC2.1734.000] Content-Identifier: 02466402118F700E Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <402118F1.ADC2.1734.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 04 Feb 2004 08:08:23 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, jrovira@drew.edu Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org You better prove you read that, cowboy, before I rip you a new cake-hole. --Commander Blop >>> jrovira@drew.edu 02/03/04 07:14PM >>> One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: > I have to hand it to you, Daniel, you sure put on a good and amusing show! > > --tim > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:36 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBaA15179 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40211E79.1090400@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 11:31:53 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! References: <402118F1.ADC2.1734.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> In-Reply-To: <402118F1.ADC2.1734.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha :). I actually have a couple small books of his poetry and had the privilege of hearing him at a reading at Rollins College in Winter Park, FL around the summer of 1999. Even got to shake his limp, sweaty hand. He's a good storyteller, enjoyed talking about the authors he published and the grief he got for publishing them, but a very average poet, so far as I can tell. I haven't read all his work, though -- that's just my impression of the work I've read. Very NYC Jewish type of guy. Jim ANELLO Michael J wrote: >You better prove you read that, cowboy, before I rip you a new cake-hole. > >--Commander Blop > > > >>>>jrovira@drew.edu 02/03/04 07:14PM >>> >>>> >>>> >One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading >Ferlinghetti.... > >Jim > > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBYr15155 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:34 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:05:59 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:05:59 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4021185B.ADC2.16C4.000] Content-Identifier: 020E340211867008 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(1), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(6), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(100) Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4021185B.ADC2.16C4.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 04 Feb 2004 08:05:59 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Cornish guards its own MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i14G65b10919 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org yeah, ween's okay. i like van halen more though. yo joe! sorry. when i woke up in December i was 12 again. it's EXACTLY like that whole ashton kutcher time management movie, but to a "tee!" -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/03/04 04:45PM >>> Mike, I thought you would have be weaned by now. We had a different names for the Democratic party leaders and members in New Mexico years ago, Patr n and peon . It seems that the names have changed to protect the guilty. Daniel man, i was hoping this was a report on the following news headline: "George Bush pops out of Janet Jackson's blouse at Half-time of Super Bowl" -mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:34 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBYW15149 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041556.i14FuK8g028758@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:56:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Thank, Thank you very much. You can't beat a good beer to wash out the pallet after a wine spritzer like that. I was thinking about putting in "GO!" and "Yeah! GO man!" between my lines but that would have made it too autobiographical-fictiony. Feel like a new man? A little spitting after all these years of swallowing? Daniel > [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. If it does, rub > isopropyl alcohol and iodine on all infected areas, read a couple of Beat > poems while chanting "yes, I am Hip".] I have to hand it to you, Daniel, you sure put on a good and amusing show! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:35 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBZJ15161 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:35 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:07:00 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 04 Feb 2004 08:07:00 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40211897.ADC2.16F5.000] Content-Identifier: 02299402118A4003 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40211897.ADC2.16F5.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 04 Feb 2004 08:07:00 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, Omlor@aol.com Subject: Re: A PSA at the end of the show Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org All the worst, --John >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/03/04 04:45PM >>> Hi all, As those of you still reading can see, the discussion concerning Beat literature has disintegrated into vagaries, repetitions, and paralysis. So, as it ends, I did just want to offer this word to those out there who are curious. Please be assured that the literature in question, the work of poets like Ginsberg and Snyder and Corso and Ferlinghetti and Rexroth and novelists like Kerouac and Burroughs and the others, is far more diverse and rich and complex and interesting than Daniel makes it sound in his cartoonish caricatures. It includes the rhythms of big city jazz and the open highway and the rhythms of the Sierra Nevadas and Tangiers, it includes a passionate reworking of the language of Whitman and Blake and Keats and Melville and many others, and, perhaps most importantly, it includes serious discussions of spirituality and of language and of writing and loving and living and dying. Don't let the petty political nonsense of this sadly minimalizing discussion deter you from reading this extraordinarily lively and provocative and moving work, from experiencing it in all its variations and in all its traditions. Spend time with these poems and these novels and you will find yourself well rewarded. Ignore us and read. Always, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:36 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBaK15185 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041631.i14GVBbH008312@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Alexander's Companions Ride Again and Again and Again Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:31:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Was the email you are replying about ever posted? I never got it. Daniel Daniel, 732 words and still no sign at all that you've read any of the specific texts in question. Not a word, not a line, not a single detail, not a specific moment, nothing. I see no reason to change my original conclusion. But I'll keep waiting. Meanwhile we get the following generalities, which, it turns out, could refer to any one of a number of literary movements spanning the centuries: "unhappy with the 'establishment' enough to attack it in word, song, and deed" Not *entirely* true about the Beats, (Kerouac does very little actual "attacking," for instance), but certainly true about a number of other literary movements throughout history, including Modernism and the Romantics. "They both reacted in very similar ways, sexual expression, a claim of Beauty and Love that was very subjective..." Romantics, Moderns, and more than a few others... "placed a lot of stock in pharmacology to provide inspiration." See above. "borrowed heavily from other cultures..." See above. And still no reading. And still no texts to discuss. And so I wait. --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 12:11:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14HBbh15190 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:11:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041642.i14GgoQO011133@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Alexander's Companions Ride Again and Again and Again Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 16:42:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Counting my words, damm that IS flattering, hey Scottie has anyone but old MS. Beasley in 6th grade composition ever counted your words? More undocumented claims about Beats John, sorry no time to count the words. Reminds me of my teenage sister-in-laws, always asking to see my cards without putting any money in the pot. Daniel Daniel, 732 words and still no sign at all that you've read any of the specific texts in question. Not a word, not a line, not a single detail, not a specific moment, nothing. I see no reason to change my original conclusion. But I'll keep waiting. Meanwhile we get the following generalities, which, it turns out, could refer to any one of a number of literary movements spanning the centuries: "unhappy with the 'establishment' enough to attack it in word, song, and deed" Not *entirely* true about the Beats, (Kerouac does very little actual "attacking," for instance), but certainly true about a number of other literary movements throughout history, including Modernism and the Romantics. "They both reacted in very similar ways, sexual expression, a claim of Beauty and Love that was very subjective..." Romantics, Moderns, and more than a few others... "placed a lot of stock in pharmacology to provide inspiration." See above. "borrowed heavily from other cultures..." See above. And still no reading. And still no texts to discuss. And so I wait. --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:19 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTJ222558 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040204171205.79195.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:12:05 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Lucy=20Pearson?= Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200402032243.i13Mhh723485@dont.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-219306505-1075914725=:78920" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-219306505-1075914725=:78920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Tim, Bravo! I've been avoiding posting quick messages recently to keep your workload down, but I have to write and say how good it is to hear such an intelligent and impassioned approach to this subject. A pleasure to read. And thanks, to Cecilia, too, for posting the original link. While I'm posting, I'd also like to say thank you for keeping the list up and running, Tim. Here's hoping your labours will soon be diminished and you can take the list off manual. Best, Lucy-Ruth Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:50:31 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own [WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend. It's also off the topic of Salinger. Bail out now, if you offend easily.] On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:03:14AM -0500, James Rovira wrote: [regarding MoveOn political adversiting] > The ads are generally incendiary and grossly biased. There's no great > sacrifice of virtue in refusing to air them. I may be ignorant of pop culture, but I am most definitely not ignorant of either politics or the culture of slime. Of COURSE these are incendiary advertisements ... they are POLITICAL, for god's sake! Being "biased" is what a political ad is about! For too many years, the Democrats in the United States seemed afraid to say anything too strongly, as if speaking up would make them unpopular. And they were roundly trounced, often, by trash-talking opponents. You don't get a political message across, these days, by mincing across the stage. What did you EXPECT from political ads that (finally, for once) take a strong stand on the left? For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws live. They have tiptoed around, afraid of offending, afraid to take any but the safest of stances. But George Bush and his cronies have pushed things entirely too far. People are finally coming to realize how many lies they have been fed. Bill Clinton, who was pilloried almost non-stop during his eight years in office, lied about a stupid sexual liaison, but he didn't get anyone killed by his idiotic moves with Monica Lewinsky. (I'm not defending Clinton. I don't like him. He was a liar and a fraud and a weasel. But he was not evil. He did not bankrupt the Treasury. He did not bully the world. He did not unilaterally reject treaties. He did not suspend the right to a speedy trial. He did not prevent a person accused of a crime from confronting his accuser. At worst, Clinton was hapless. The opposition spent a lot of money trying to convict him ... think Whitewater ... Filegate ... Monica ... when the real issue was that Republicans in Congress resented that Clinton occupied the Oval Office, and tried their best to turn him out of that office. It didn't help matters, of course, that he was his own worst enemy.) Given that the Bush Corporation gets its message out at will, by way of a press corps too cowed to ask hard questions (lest reporters find themselves banned from press briefings), then it is to be expected that the opposition is going to raise pointed questions. If you rewind to LBJ's run for the presidency, you may recall the famous commercial of a little girl playing with a daisy, which morphed into the image of a mushroom cloud ... the message, of course, being that voters had to exercise caution in electing Barry Goldwater, who (it was implied) might be a bit trigger-happy. There was not much that was subtle about that message. But it cut to the core argument, which was: "Do you trust Barry Goldwater's finger on the big red button?" Should you want to review some of the more notorious ads from the age of television, see this web site: http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/ad.archive/ It is unfortunate that BEER commercials are acceptable television discourse, but paid political messages are suddenly not. Do you think the networks will turn down Republican political messages that aim at the Democratic presidential ticket? Let's wait and see how long it takes for the dirty tricks to start seeping out of this White House. > I think the base critique offered by the ads is valid, but comparisons > between the US and Pakistan is freaking ridiculous...unless you've > never been anywhere outside the US, of course. It's not about Pakistan, Jim. Think abstractly. Extrapolate from what you know: It is about the politics of fear and the culture of repression. Pakistan -- or whatever the country of the guy in the advertisement -- is only a stand-in, a straw man. The point is that, ideally, a viewer in the U.S. will probably nod absently at infringement of civil liberties in some country on the other side of the globe ... but may be jolted to hear that the real complaint is in this country, this administration. I attended a computer security briefing not long ago, where the FBI and local law enforcement gave presentations about what they do regarding computer crime. The FBI assured us that they had no intention of abusing the carte blanche they had been given by the USA PATRIOT act. Few people in the room believed them, and the agents were visibly discomfited by people who spoke up with skepticism. (And at a prior meeting with federal law enforcement, when the presenter made a big deal about how we have to trust Washington with our privacy and our civil liberties, and how we have to understand that Washington would NEVER do anything to violate those liberties, I asked this question: "Why would we trust you blindly, when your agency has demonstrated, time and again, that it tramples on civil liberties if it has the chance?" He didn't -- he couldn't -- defend his agency. Rather, he sputtered and finally, lamely, answered, "Well, we're just asking you to have faith that those abuses won't happen again." Uh, su-u-u-ure they won't.) Then what do you know ... the very day after the security briefing with the FBI, newspapers carried a detailed article about how the FBI was using its new-found PATRIOT powers to infiltrate protest groups, such as anti-war activists. The premise was that the FBI were chasing terrorists. The revolting part is that in the culture of repression, a person who stands up for peace is automatically equated with terrorism. That is wrong. And that is bullshit. And someone has to stand up and say so. The TSA, which operates check-in security at U.S. airports, maintains a "no-fly" list now -- you know that, don't you? The argument is that such a list will keep suspected terrorists out of airplanes. (Some of us who are alert might ask: If you know the identities of people who are dangerous enough to be kept off airplanes, shouldn't those dangerous people be taken into custody rather than be on some LIST somewhere so we prevent them from flying? Are they dangerous only when boarding a plane, but harmless elsewhere?) Oddly enough, a number of people active in protesting Bush policies have found themselves on the list. When last I checked, they had no way to get themselves off the list. That is what the politics of fear gets you. That is what a culture of repression becomes. You may be happy to live that way, Jim. I am not. It's not about a head-to-head comparison between the U.S. and Pakistan, Jim. You are missing the point. That ad is about a description of life under siege, which viewers might reflexively assume is taking place Out There Somewhere ... only to have the creator of the piece say: Hey, guess what? It's not Out There Somewhere. It's about abuses happening at home -- so, the commercial suggests, how about getting off your ass and doing something to change it? > This is > all very silly and not the type of political discourse that actually > disseminates useful knowledge or ways of handling knowledge. This is either a naive or stupid conclusion. And since I have dealt with you and know you are not stupid, I can only conclude that you are being naive. If you think the party in power is not going to release the kind of slime that makes MoveOn ads look gentle by comparison, then you are kidding yourself. They have done it before. They will do it again. And it will not be subtle, and it will not be sly, and it will not be the result of a creative competition, like the "bushin30seconds.com" event was. You can be sure that the current White House administration will do everything possible to cling to power (though I like to imagine that there would be something of a French Revolution if the Supreme Court stepped in to re-appoint Bush to a second term, as they did after he lost the last election). We live in an age of dirty tricks, and have for a long time now. We live in a time of political uncertainty. I regret that an opposition voice cannot buy time on a television station to speak. You can be sure that BushCo. will have no problem airing ads designed to undermine the Democratic nominee. (Hey, Republicans did it four years ago, and eight years ago, and twelve years ago, and sixteen years ago, and so on. Finally, the Democratic opposition is catching on to how the game is played. Finally, the lesson of LBJ's "daisy" ad is sinking in.) I have no doubt that Karl Rove (sometimes known as "Bush's Brain") is strategizing RIGHT NOW regarding how to best launch devastating attacks on whoever is nominated by the Democratic party. Read the new book, THE PRICE OF LOYALTY, if you want to hear about the inner workings of the present White House, from the perspective of one former Cabinet member. (DISCLAIMER: I am still reading it, but the mind boggles, even part-way through, at how things happen in the present White House.) I do not like the direction this country is taking, and a majority apparently agrees (but we were thwarted by the Supreme Court, which chose to award the presidency to the loser of the election). You may not want to hear what an opposition group says, and you are entitled to ignore it or disagree or ridicule it. But someone should stand up and say that this squelching of an opposing voice is wrong. That is what the MoveOn people are doing. Don't you think the Republicans will go for the jugular, later this year? This is what passes for "political discourse" in 2004. If it's a dirty game, you have to get dirty to play. Otherwise, you just get a bullet to the back of the head, and it's game over, Jim. [Obligatory Salinger Reference: He is a registered Republican. I verified it for myself by reading the list of registered voters tacked to the door of Cornish's Town Hall. But I don't know how he votes, nor do I care.] - --tim o'connor - - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 --0-219306505-1075914725=:78920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
 
Dear Tim,
 
Bravo! I've been avoiding posting quick messages recently to keep your workload down, but I have to write and say how good it is to hear such an intelligent and impassioned approach to this subject. A pleasure to read. And thanks, to Cecilia, too, for posting the original link.
 
While I'm posting, I'd also like to say thank you for keeping the list up and running, Tim. Here's hoping your labours will soon be diminished and you can take the list off manual.
 
Best,
 
Lucy-Ruth
 
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 15:50:31 -0500
From: "Tim O'Connor" <tim@roughdraft.org>
Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own

[WARNING: this message may irritate, outrage, or offend.  It's also
off the topic of Salinger.  Bail out now, if you offend easily.]






On Tue, Feb 03, 2004 at 10:03:14AM -0500, James Rovira wrote:

[regarding MoveOn political adversiting]

> The ads are generally incendiary and grossly biased.  There's no
great
> sacrifice of virtue in refusing to air them.

I may be ignorant of pop culture, but I am most definitely not ignorant
of either politics or the culture of slime.

Of COURSE these are incendiary advertisements ... they are POLITICAL,
for god's sake!  Being "biased" is what a political ad is about!  For
too many ye ars, the Democrats in the United States seemed afraid to say
anything too strongly, as if speaking up would make them unpopular. 
And they were roundly trounced, often, by trash-talking opponents.

You don't get a political message across, these days, by mincing across
the stage.  What did you EXPECT from political ads that (finally, for
once) take a strong stand on the left? 

For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and
unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws
live.  They have tiptoed around, afraid of offending, afraid to take
any but the safest of stances.  But George Bush and his cronies have
pushed things entirely too far.  People are finally coming to realize
how many lies they have been fed.

Bill Clinton, who was pilloried almost non-stop during his eight years
in office, lied about a stupid sexual liaison, but he didn't get anyone
killed by his idiotic moves with Monica Lewinsky.  (I'm not defending
Clinton.  I don't like him.  He was a liar and a fraud and a weasel. 
But he was not evil.  He did not bankrupt the Treasury.  He did not
bully the world.  He did not unilaterally reject treaties.  He did not
suspend the right to a speedy trial.  He did not prevent a person
accused of a crime from confronting his accuser.  At worst, Clinton was
hapless.  The opposition spent a lot of money trying to convict him ...
think Whitewater ... Filegate ... Monica ... when the real issue was
that Republicans in Congress resented that Clinton occupied the Oval
Office, and tried their best to turn him out of that office.  It
didn't help matters, of course, that he was his own worst enemy.)

Given that the Bush Corporation gets its message out at will, by way
of a press corps too cowed to ask hard questions (lest reporters fin d
themselves banned from press briefings), then it is to be expected that
the opposition is going to raise pointed questions.

If you rewind to LBJ's run for the presidency, you may recall the
famous
commercial of a little girl playing with a daisy, which morphed into
the
image of a mushroom cloud ... the message, of course, being that voters
had to exercise caution in electing Barry Goldwater, who (it was
implied)
might be a bit trigger-happy.  There was not much that was subtle about
that message.  But it cut to the core argument, which was: "Do you
trust
Barry Goldwater's finger on the big red button?"

Should you want to review some of the more notorious ads from the age
of
television, see this web site:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/ad.archive/

It is unfortu nate that BEER commercials are acceptable television
discourse, but paid political messages are suddenly not.

Do you think the networks will turn down Republican political messages
that aim at the Democratic presidential ticket?  Let's wait and see how
long it takes for the dirty tricks to start seeping out of this White
House.

> I think the base critique offered by the ads is valid, but
comparisons
> between the US and Pakistan is freaking ridiculous...unless you've
> never been anywhere outside the US, of course. 

It's not about Pakistan, Jim.  Think abstractly.  Extrapolate from
what you know:  It is about the politics of fear and the culture of
repression. 

Pakistan -- or whatever the country of the guy in the advertisement --
is only a stand-in, a straw man.  The point is that, ideally, a viewer
in the U.S. will probably nod absently at infringement of civil
liberties in some country on the other side of the globe ... but may be
jolted to hear that the real complaint is in this country, this
administration.

I attended a computer security briefing not long ago, where the FBI
and local law enforcement gave presentations about what they do
regarding computer crime.  The FBI assured us that they had no
intention of abusing the carte blanche they had been given by the USA
PATRIOT act. 

Few people in the room believed them, and the agents were visibly
discomfited by people who spoke up with skepticism.  (And at a prior
meeting with federal law enforcement, when the presenter made a big
deal about how we have to trust Washington with our privacy and our
civil liberties, and how we have to understand that Washington would
NEVER do anything to violate those liberties, I asked this question:
"Why would we trust you blindly, when your agency has demonstrated, < BR>time and again, that it tramples on civil liberties if it has the
chance?"  He didn't -- he couldn't -- defend his agency.  Rather, he
sputtered and finally, lamely, answered, "Well, we're just asking you
to have faith that those abuses won't happen again."  Uh, su-u-u-ure
they won't.)

Then what do you know ... the very day after the security briefing
with the FBI, newspapers carried a detailed article about how the FBI
was using its new-found PATRIOT powers to infiltrate protest groups,
such as anti-war activists.  The premise was that the FBI were chasing
terrorists.  The revolting part is that in the culture of repression, a
person who stands up for peace is automatically equated with terrorism.

That is wrong.

And that is bullshit.

And someone has to stand up and say so.

The TSA, which operates check-in security at U.S. airports, maintains a
"no-fly" list now -- you know that, d on't you?  The argument is that
such a list will keep suspected terrorists out of airplanes.  (Some
of us who are alert might ask: If you know the identities of people
who are dangerous enough to be kept off airplanes, shouldn't those
dangerous people be taken into custody rather than be on some LIST
somewhere so we prevent them from flying?  Are they dangerous only
when boarding a plane, but harmless elsewhere?) 

Oddly enough, a number of people active in protesting Bush policies
have found themselves on the list.  When last I checked, they had no
way to get themselves off the list.  That is what the politics of fear
gets you.  That is what a culture of repression becomes. 

You may be happy to live that way, Jim.  I am not.

It's not about a head-to-head comparison between the U.S. and
Pakistan, Jim.  You are missing the point.  That ad is about a
description of life under siege, which viewers might reflexively
assume is taking place Out There Somewhere ... only to have the
creator of the piece say: Hey, guess what?  It's not Out There
Somewhere.  It's about abuses happening at home -- so, the
commercial suggests, how about getting off your ass and doing
something to change it?

> This is
> all very silly and not the type of political discourse that actually
> disseminates useful knowledge or ways of handling knowledge.

This is either a naive or stupid conclusion.  And since I have dealt
with you and know you are not stupid, I can only conclude that you
are being naive.

If you think the party in power is not going to release the kind of
slime that makes MoveOn ads look gentle by comparison, then you are
kidding yourself.

They have done it before.  They will do it again.  And it will not be
subtle, and it will not be sly, and it will not be the result of a
creative competition, like the "bushin30seconds.com" event was.  You
can be sure that the current White House administration will do
everything possible to cling to power (though I like to imagine that
there would be something of a French Revolution if the Supreme Court
stepped in to re-appoint Bush to a second term, as they did after he
lost the last election).

We live in an age of dirty tricks, and have for a long time now.  We
live in a time of political uncertainty.  I regret that an opposition
voice cannot buy time on a television station to speak.  You can be
sure that BushCo. will have no problem airing ads designed to undermine
the Democratic nominee.  (Hey, Republicans did it four years ago, and
eight years ago, and twelve years ago, and sixteen years ago, and so
on.  Finally, the Democratic opposition is catching on to how the game
is played.  Finally, the le sson of LBJ's "daisy" ad is sinking in.) 

I have no doubt that Karl Rove (sometimes known as "Bush's Brain")
is strategizing RIGHT NOW regarding how to best launch devastating
attacks on whoever is nominated by the Democratic party.  Read the
new book, THE PRICE OF LOYALTY, if you want to hear about the inner
workings of the present White House, from the perspective of one
former Cabinet member.  (DISCLAIMER: I am still reading it, but
the mind boggles, even part-way through, at how things happen in the
present White House.)

I do not like the direction this country is taking, and a majority
apparently agrees (but we were thwarted by the Supreme Court, which
chose to award the presidency to the loser of the election).

You may not want to hear what an opposition group says, and you are
entitled to ignore it or disagree or ridicule it.  But someone should
stand up and say that this squelching of an oppo sing voice is wrong.

That is what the MoveOn people are doing.  Don't you think the
Republicans will go for the jugular, later this year?

This is what passes for "political discourse" in 2004.  If it's a dirty
game, you have to get dirty to play.  Otherwise, you just get a bullet
to the back of the head, and it's game over, Jim.


[Obligatory Salinger Reference: He is a registered Republican.  I
verified it for myself by reading the list of registered voters tacked
to the door of Cornish's Town Hall.  But I don't know how he votes, nor
do I care.]


- --tim o'connor

- -
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BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save £80 --0-219306505-1075914725=:78920-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTLc22578 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040204173452.82186.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:34:52 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: A close reading of Catcher To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040203205357.GB15600@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > I don't have a copy of that > story, though. I've > never even SEEN that one! > I haven't seen, read, nor own *any* of the never-published. My speculation about "The Boy in the People Shooting Hat" derives from a Lobrano letter reproduced in Yagoda's book about The New Yorker. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:20 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTKM22572 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:15:31 -0500 From: Omlor@aol.com To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Alexander's Companions Ride Again and Again and Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <01B74489.3C252176.00010341@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 131.247.200.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Daniel, Surely you know that I didn't have to count the words. --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTLE22590 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041753.i14Hr8dS029927@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:53:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org mmmmmmmm, cake. Daniel You better prove you read that, cowboy, before I rip you a new cake-hole. --Commander Blop - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTLg22585 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:34:32 -0500 From: Omlor@aol.com To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Cornish guards its own: Jerome: Get off my property! MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4CA6C672.342C5474.00010341@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 131.247.200.8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Daniel accuses me of thinking in terms of style. Not just style, but reading as well. But I should cite specifics. Let's just look at one example. Tim wrote the following simile: "For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws live." Daniel read this and apparently decided Tim was saying that there were no rich Democrats, or no Democrats in mansions, and replied: "Democrats as visitors in Mansions? Like Rockefeller, Kennedy, Samuel Waskol, Betty McCollum, Ted turner, not bothering to list all the Hollywood Mansion-aires?" This sort of sad inability either to recognize or deal with figurative language is a quality routinely found in average junior high school students. (And Springer guests, who find chair throwing a necessary gesture because their language skills so often fail them.) But I'm sure most people on the list recognize the pattern by now. All the best, especially to my friend Michael, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 14:29:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14JTMV22599 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 14:29:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402041815.i14IFIlR006241@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Fear and Oppression Premieres Friday at Grauman's Chinese Theater , Join the GALA Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 18:15:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The real reason why Madonna endorsed General Clark. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110344,00.html Big Hollywood Brother won't stop until they get your red licorice and popcorn too. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 17:25:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14MP9O02600 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:25:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402042131.i14LV8R9023540@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Average Junior High School Stylings Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:31:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org If Tim was merely figuratively casting Democrats as restrained reticent and unwelcomed participators in the public discourse then why did he use the image of the average Joe married to the daughter of the Cold Rich Guy in his excessive house? Your not familiar with the old Democrat con, "they are for the poor and down trodden and the Republicans are for themselves i.e. the Rich and insensitive"? Figurative language, like shit, doesn't just happen except maybe in Ginsburg's poetry. I found Tim's word choices interesting and telling since that's what words do but they are only texts to you right? Come on John, in New Mexico we don't throw chairs indoors, we ask you out, we have respect for our mother's carpet. Style morphs into patterns, and John O. as guide, it will be just like one of those Gassed out Beat trips where the words have to go down on paper before the ride ends and John wanders off in a Spiritual stupor. I'm just glad that Tim's bout of oppression didn't keeping him from throwing chairs. So John what's your beef with Jerry Springer? Worried your papa is not your papa but your papa don't know? When your lover screams out "Who's your Daddy?" they don't mean it literally, don't worry Alfred E. Neuman. John O. you sure have advanced from strictly reading texts to ascribing authorial intent or failure of that intent, boy you're a fast learner. Daniel Daniel accuses me of thinking in terms of style. Not just style, but reading as well. But I should cite specifics. Let's just look at one example. Tim wrote the following simile: "For entirely too long, Democrats have acted like an unwelcome and unpopular husband who is visiting the mansion in which his in-laws live." Daniel read this and apparently decided Tim was saying that there were no rich Democrats, or no Democrats in mansions, and replied: "Democrats as visitors in Mansions? Like Rockefeller, Kennedy, Samuel Waskol, Betty McCollum, Ted turner, not bothering to list all the Hollywood Mansion-aires?" This sort of sad inability either to recognize or deal with figurative language is a quality routinely found in average junior high school students. (And Springer guests, who find chair throwing a necessary gesture because their language skills so often fail them.) But I'm sure most people on the list recognize the pattern by now. All the best, especially to my friend Michael, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 17:25:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i14MP9W02606 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:25:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402042146.i14LkfBg027377@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Again and Again and Again Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:46:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org A grad student? You're just feeding my ego now. Daniel Daniel, Surely you know that I didn't have to count the words. --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 23:48:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i154mMo20711 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <129.3aaf5115.2d531d07@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:13:59 EST Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_129.3aaf5115.2d531d07_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_129.3aaf5115.2d531d07_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, First, I can't believe that you are not technologically literate enough to know why I didn't have to count your words. Second, I have nothing against Jerry Springer. I just like to know my audience when I am writing. In your case, it's certainly been made clear. Repeatedly. Third, I ascribed no specific "intent" in my reading, merely cited Tim's passage and then your response and noticed his figural language and your literalism. Whatever conclusion anyone wants to draw from that sequence is their business, but I recognized in it a limited and childish act of reading and cited it as such. By the way, I can think of at least one possible answer to your first question that you obviously have not considered. But I have no interest in or reason for sharing it. If Tim wishes to spell out his similes for the hard-of-reading, that's up to him. Perhaps he's happy to let the exchange stand as a demonstration of the difference between you two. I wouldn't blame him at all. All the best (for Michael especially), --John --part1_129.3aaf5115.2d531d07_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel,

First, I can't believe that you are not technologically literate enough=20= to know why I didn't have to count your words.

Second, I have nothing against Jerry Springer. I just like to know my au= dience when I am writing.  In your case, it's certainly been made clear= .  Repeatedly.

Third, I ascribed no specific "intent" in my reading, merely cited Tim's= passage and then your response and noticed his figural language and your li= teralism.  Whatever conclusion anyone wants to draw from that sequence=20= is their business, but I recognized in it a limited and childish act of read= ing and cited it as such.

By the way, I can think of at least one possible answer to your first qu= estion that you obviously have not considered.  But I have no interest=20= in or reason for sharing it.  If Tim wishes to spell out his similes fo= r the hard-of-reading, that's up to him.  Perhaps he's happy to let the= exchange stand as a demonstration of the difference between you two.  = I wouldn't blame him at all.

All the best (for Michael especially),

--John

--part1_129.3aaf5115.2d531d07_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 4 23:48:21 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i154mLB20706 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:48:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:14:28 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: greetings To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <6440063.1075947268935.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, My name is Mike Nowek and this is my first post. I am working on an independent study regarding 'Catcher' and 'Franny and Zooey'. I am focusing on what insights middle and high school teachers can get into their adolescent students by reading these two texts. I'm currently in the brainstorming stage, closely reading both books and any suggestions anyone has would be most appreciated. Thank you -Mike Nowek - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 11:10:10 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15GAAI20627 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:10:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040205142405.35479.qmail@web41711.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 06:24:05 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: greetings To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <6440063.1075947268935.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi Mike, My own breakdowns and insanity aside, I think that Catcher and F&Z present some interesting psychological conflicts for adolescents to consider...sometimes when you're crazy (Isn't adolesence a form of insanity? Perhaps our resident psychiatrist and crazy man himself--Scottie--would know?)or at least not understanding "real worlds," reading about others going nuts like you helps...but then again, I thought Holden was pretty normal...I won't comment on Franny though...too close to home. Esmé 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 12:05:47 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15H5l023115 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:05:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402051610.i15GAbJT025874@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:10:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John, Once upon a time, recently, not very far from here there was a city. It was a magnificent city to the eye and full of people. It was a wall less city since it was remote and it trusted in it's isolation as a defense against alien calamity. One day a merchant traveling through the city rushed to the market in the city center and told all those near at hand that The Great Leopard King of the mountains of the east was approaching with much strength in his train and he was going to take the city, burn the fine buildings and homes, rob them of their possessions and bleed them in the streets. At first of those few around some believed and some didn't believe and eventually the merchant went his way. The people begin discussing this news and as it spread it become hotly disputed. The excitement had run its course and the city was taking up it's work again when some herders came in to the city with reports of mounted armed men approaching from the east. This news sent the city into panic and for many days anger and fear could be heard in the voices of the people. The Prince of the city who judged the people addressed them asking if there were any further reports of these armed men and no one answered. Weeks passed and rumors were heard in shops, on corners, and whispered at night in bed chambers about new sightings of armed men approaching from the east. Men quarreled over bits of bread in the market place, women braided at the smallest offence, and children took to kicking dogs in the streets. It seemed that all this could not be real when mounted men appeared upon the hills far to the east of the city. The people watched all this in silence. Many returned to their homes and shut the doors and windows. Night fell and an unheard wail slowly rose up out of the darkness until it was in every ear through out the city. Doors were flung open and the streets were flooded with writhing waters of flesh, at first, with the sole intent of escaping. Many were empty handed in the beginning but the tide turned back to their homes to carry away their possessions. This undertow brought bodies back upon bodies and bone back upon bone and soon they were ruptured in the counter flow and blood began to flow. Many unable to regain their own homes burst upon those of their neighbors and carried away all that they could. The night wore on. Near dawn the general of the encampment noticed a flicker in the city in the valley below and when enough light broke over the horizon a tower of smoke arose above the city pointing to the heavens. He ordered a chosen adjutant to discover the meaning of all this. The adjutant, the general's own son, approached the city cutting through the terror stricken waters. He managed to detain a notable appearing man with an armful of wine amphora's. He asked what was the meaning of all this. The man with amazed eyes said that it was him, the general's son. The adjutant pressed him. The man said you, The mountain Leopard King has come and laid our fair city to waste. The adjutant hearing this ripped his garment open and cried saying "we heard this very rumor, and I taking pity on you begged my father to come to your aid, we gathered a great host to place between that predator and you, man what have you done your selves?", the man fall down at the adjutant's feet in misery. The adjutant asked him what this merchant, bearer of ill news, looked like. After hearing the man's description he cried a second time saying, "That merchant was the Mountain Leopard King and he has taken the city with his strength." Daniel Daniel, First, I can't believe that you are not technologically literate enough to know why I didn't have to count your words. Second, I have nothing against Jerry Springer. I just like to know my audience when I am writing. In your case, it's certainly been made clear. Repeatedly. Third, I ascribed no specific "intent" in my reading, merely cited Tim's passage and then your response and noticed his figural language and your literalism. Whatever conclusion anyone wants to draw from that sequence is their business, but I recognized in it a limited and childish act of reading and cited it as such. By the way, I can think of at least one possible answer to your first question that you obviously have not considered. But I have no interest in or reason for sharing it. If Tim wishes to spell out his similes for the hard-of-reading, that's up to him. Perhaps he's happy to let the exchange stand as a demonstration of the difference between you two. I wouldn't blame him at all. All the best (for Michael especially), --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 12:05:48 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15H5mL23123 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:05:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:27:05 -0500 From: orangelove@aol.com To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Teddy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6403C5A0.45E6C241.0C6DCED6@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 10.174.37.123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi All, I recently re-read "Teddy" (for about the millionth time), and I'm still an ailing victim of that last paragraph! I thought I had the story understood until it ended, and now I'm totally confused. Any insight into the story? I'd welcome all ideas (and don't worry, I won't ask you to list all the books you've read in defense of your response. :) --Molly - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15KisY04938 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402051722.i15HMfol016811@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: greetings Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:22:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i15HPfb24180 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Esmé 4, Scottie is just here to collect his quota of philistine foreskins for his dowry. I'd be surprised if he would talk about his late onset adolescent insanity with us. Daniel (Isn't adolesence a form of insanity? Perhaps our resident psychiatrist and crazy man himself--Scottie--would know?) Esmé 4 - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:57 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15Kiv304984 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402051941.i15JfvYJ019249@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Options Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:41:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I Got this from a Civil Engineer in the Navy, I censored his identity. Daniel This is long. It takes about 20 minutes to read but is pretty damn funny. Give it a try. Very respectfully, ENS ******** *. *****, CEC ******** ***** Engineer Public Works, Naval Base ****** ****** April 16, 2003 The 213 Things Skippy is No Longer Allowed to Do in the U.S. Army SGT Shawn Stanford Once upon a time, there was a SPC Schwarz stationed with the Army in the Balkans. SPC Schwarz was either very clever or very bored; but probably both, since he managed to attempt or be warned about 213 things he wasn't allowed to do. He collected those things into a hillarious list and posted them to the web. The site hadn't been updated in a couple of years and has since gone away; but the list is classic, so I saved it. A couple favorites: 2. My proper military title is 'Specialist Schwarz' not 'Princess Anastasia'. and 191. Our Humvees cannot be assembled into a giant battle-robot. >Not allowed to watch Southpark when I'm supposed to be working. >My proper military title is 'Specialist Schwarz' not 'Princess Anastasia'. >Not allowed to threaten anyone with black magic. > >Not allowed to challenge anyone's disbelief of black magic by asking for >hair. > >Not allowed to get silicone breast implants. > >Not allowed to play 'Pulp Fiction' with a suction-cup dart pistol and any >officer. > >Not allowed to add 'In accordance with the prophesy' to the end of answers >I give to a question an officer asks me. > >Not allowed to add pictures of officers I don't like to War Criminal >posters. > >Not allowed to title any product 'Get Over it'. > >Not allowed to purchase anyone's soul on Government time. > >Not allowed to join the communist party. > >Not allowed to join any militia. > >Not allowed to form any militia. > >Not allowed out of my office when the president visited Sarajevo. > >Not allowed to train adopted stray dogs to 'Sic Brass!' > >Must get a haircut even if it tampers with my 'Sampson like powers'. > >God may not contradict any of my orders. > >May no longer perform my now (in)famous 'Barbie Girl Dance' while on duty. > >May not call any officers immoral, untrustworthy, lying, slime, even if I'm >right. > >Must not taunt the French any more. > >Must attempt to not antagonize SAS. > >Must never call an SAS a 'Wanker'. > >Must never ask anyone who outranks me if they've been smoking crack. > >Must not tell any officer that I am smarter than they are, especially if >it's true. > >Never confuse a Dutch soldier for a French one. > >Never tell a German soldier that 'We kicked your ass in World War 2!' > >Don't tell Princess Di jokes in front of the paras (British Airborne). > >Don't take the batteries out of the other soldiers alarm clocks (Even if >they do hit snooze about forty times). > >The Irish MPs are not after 'Me frosted lucky charms'. > >Not allowed to wake an Non-Commissioned Officer by repeatedly banging on >the head with a bag of trash. > >Not allowed to let sock puppets take responsibility for any of my actions. > >Not allowed to let sock puppets take command of my post. > >Not allowed to chew gum at formation, unless I brought enough for >everybody. > >(Next day) Not allowed to chew gum at formation even if I *did* bring >enough for everybody. > >Not allowed to sing 'High Speed Dirt' by Megadeth during airborne >operations. ('See the earth below/Soon to make a crater/Blue sky, black >death, I'm off to meet my maker') > >Can't have flashbacks to wars I was not in. (The Spanish-American War isn't >over). > >Our medic is called 'Sgt Larwasa', not 'Dr. Feelgood'. > >Our supply Sgt is 'Sgt Watkins' not 'Sugar Daddy'. > >Not allowed to ask for the day off due to religious purposes, on the basis >that the world is going to end, more than once. > >I do not have super-powers. > >'Keep on Trucking' is *not* a psychological warfare message. > >Not allowed to attempt to appeal to mankind's baser instincts in >recruitment posters. > >Camouflage body paint is not a uniform. > >I am not the atheist chaplain. > >I am not allowed to 'Go to Bragg boulevard and shake daddies little money >maker for twenties stuffed into my undies'. > >I am not authorized to fire officers. > >I am not a citizen of Texas, and those other, forty-nine, lesser states. > >I may not use public masturbation as a tool to demonstrate a flaw in a >command decision. > >Not allowed to trade military equipment for 'magic beans'. > >Not allowed to sell magic beans during duty hours. > >Not allowed to quote 'Dr Seuss' on military operations. > >Not allowed to yell 'Take that Cobra' at the rifle range. > >Not allowed to quote 'Full Metal Jacket ' at the rifle range. > >'Napalm sticks to kids' is *not* a motivational phrase. > >An order to 'Put Kiwi on my boots' does *not* involve fruit. > >An order to 'Make my Boots black and shiny' does not involve electrical >tape. > >The proper response to a lawful order is not 'Why?' > >The following words and phrases may not be used in a cadence- Budding >sexuality, necrophilia, I hate everyone in this formation and wish they >were dead, sexual lubrication, black earth mother, all Marines are latent >homosexuals, Tantric yoga, Gotterdammerung, Korean hooker, Eskimo Nell, >we've all got jackboots now, slut puppy, or any references to squid. > >May not make posters depicting the leadership failings of my chain of >command. > >'The Giant Space Ants' are not at the top of my chain of command. > >If one soldier has a 2nd Lt bar on his uniform, and I have an E-4 on mine >It means he outranks me. It does not mean 'I have been promoted three more >times than you'. > >It is better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission, no longer applies >to Specialist Schwarz. > >Command decisions do *not* need to be ratified by a 2/3 majority. > >Inflatable novelties do *not* entitle me to BAQ or Separation pay. > >There are no evil clowns living under my bed. > >There is no 'Anti-Mime' campaign in Bosnia. > >I am not the Psychological Warfare Mascot. > >I may not line my helmet with tin foil to 'Block out the space mind control >lasers'. > >May not pretend to be a facist stormtrooper, while on duty. > >I am not authorized to prescribe any form of medication. > >I must not flaunt my deviances in front of my chain of command. > >May not wear gimp mask while on duty. > >No military functions are to be performed 'Skyclad'. > >Woad is not camouflage makeup. > >May not conduct psychological experiments on my chain of command. > >"Teddy Bear, Teddy bear, turn around" is *not* a cadence. > >The MP checkpoint is not an Imperial Stormtrooper roadblock, so I should >not tell them "You don't need to see my identification, these are not the >droids you are looking for." > >I may not call block my chain of command. > >I am neither the king nor queen of cheese. > >Not allowed to wear a dress to any army functions. > >May not bring a drag queen to the battalion formal dance. > >May not form any press gangs. > >Must not start any SITREP (Situation Report) with "I recently had an >experience I just had to write you about...." > >Must not use military vehicles to 'Squish' things. > >Not allowed to make any Psychological Warfare products depicting the >infamous Ft. Bragg sniper incident. > >May not challenge anyone in my chain of command to the 'field of honor'. > >If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I >am to assume that I am not allowed to do it. > >Must not refer to 1st Sgt as 'Mom'. > >Must not refer to the Commander as 'Dad'. > >Inflatable sheep do *not* need to be displayed during a room inspection. > >I am not authorized to initiate Jihad. > >When asked to give a few words at a military ceremony 'Romper Bomper >Stomper Boo' is probably not appropriate. > >Nerve gas is not funny. > >Crucifixes do not ward off officers, and I should not test that. > >I am not in need of a more suitable host body. > >'Redneck Zombies' is not a military training aid. > >Gozer does not dwell in my refrigerator. > >The proper response to a chemical weapon attack is not 'Tell my chain of >command what I really think about them, and then poke holes in their >masks.' > >A smiley face is not used to mark a minefield. > >Claymore mines are not filled with yummy candy, and it is wrong to tell new >soldiers that they are. > >I am not allowed to mount a bayonet on a crew-served weapon. > >Rodents are not entitled to burial with full military honors, even if they >are "casualties of war". > >My commander is not old enough to have fought in the civil war, and I >should stop implying that he did. > >Vodka, green food coloring, and a 'Cool Mint' Listerine(r) bottle is not a >good combination. > >I am not allowed to bum cigarettes off of anyone under twelve. > >I may not trade my rifle for any of the following: Cigarettes, booze, >sexual favors, Kalishnikovs, Soviet Armored vehicles, small children, or >bootleg CD's. > >Must not mock command decisions in front of the press. > >Should not taunt members of the press, even if they are really fat, >exceptionally stupid, and working for UPI. > >I am not authorized to change national policy in Eastern Europe. > >Never, ever, attempt to correct a Green Beret officer about anything. > >I am not qualified to operate any US, German, Polish, or Russian Armored >vehicles. > >When saluting a 'leg' officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne >leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". > >There is absolutely no need to emulate the people from 'Full Monty' every >time I hear the song "Hot Stuff". > >I cannot trade my CO to the Russians. > >I should not speculate on the penis size of anyone who outranks me. > >Crucifying mice - bad idea. > >Must not use government equipment to bootleg pornography. > >Burn pits for classified material are not revel fires - therefore it is >wrong to dance naked around them. > >I cannot arrest children for being rude. > >An EO briefing is probably not the best place to unveil my newest off color >joke. > >I should not use government resources to 'waterproof' dirty magazines. > >Radioactive material should not be stored in the barracks. > >I should not teach other soldiers to say offensive and crude things in >Albanian, under the guise of teaching them how to say potentially useful >phrases. > >Two drink limit does not mean first and last. > >Two drink limit does not mean two kinds of drinks. > >Two drink limit does not mean the drinks can be as large as I like. > >'No Drinking Of Alcoholic Beverages' does not imply that a Jack Daniel's (r) >IV is acceptable. > >"Shpadoinkle" is not a real word. > >The Microsoft (r) 'Dancing Paperclip' is not authorized to countermand any >orders. > >'I'm drunk' is a bad answer to any question posed by my commander. > >No dancing in the turret. This especially applies in conjunction with rule >#113. > >The loudspeaker system is not a forum to voice my ideas. > >The loudspeaker system is not to be used to replace the radio. > >The loudspeaker system is not to be used to broadcast the soundtrack to a >porno movie. > >An order to put polish on my boots means the whole boot. > >Shouting 'Let's do the village! Let's do the whole fucking village!' while >out on a mission is bad. > >Should not show up at the front gate wearing part of a Russian uniform, >messily drunk. > >Even if my commander did it. > >Must not teach interpreters how to make "MRE" bombs. > >I am not authorized to sell mineral rights. > >Not allowed to use a broadsword to disprove 'The Pen is Mightier than the >sword'. > >'Calvin-Ball' is not authorized PT. > >I do not need to keep a 'range card' by my window. > >'K-Pot, LBE, and a thin coat of Break-free' is not an authorized uniform. > >I should not drink three quarts of blue food coloring before a urine test. > >Nor should I drink three quarts of red food coloring, and scream during the >same. > >I should not threaten suicide with pop rocks and Coke (r). > >Putting red 'Mike and Ike's' (r) into a prescription medicine bottle, and >then eating them all in a formation is not funny. > >Must not create new DOD forms, then insist they be filled out. > >On Sports Day PT, a wedgie is not considered a legal tackle. > >The proper way to report to my Commander is 'Specialist Schwarz, reporting >as ordered, Sir' not 'You can't prove a thing!' > >The following items do not exist: Keys to the Drop Zone, A box of grid >squares, blinker fluid, winter air for tires, canopy lights, or Chem-Light >(r) batteries. > >I should not assign new privates to 'guard the flight line'. > >Shouldn't treat 'piss-bottles' with extra-strength icy hot. > >Teaching Albanian children to taunt other soldiers is not nice. > >I will no longer perform 'lap-dances' while in uniform. > >If I take the uniform off, in the course of the lap-dance, it still counts. > >The revolution is not now. > >When detained by MP's, I do not have a right to a strip search. > >No part of the military uniform is edible. > >Bodychecking General officers is not a good idea. > >Past lives have absolutely no effect on the chain of command. > >Take that hat off. > >There is no such thing as a were-virgin. > >I do not get 'that time of month'. > >No, the pants are not optional. > >Not allowed to operate a business out of the barracks. > >Especially not a pornographic movie studio. > >Not even if they *are* 'especially patriotic films' > >Not allowed to 'defect' to OPFOR during training missions. > >On training missions, try not to shoot down the General's helicopter. > >'A full magazine and some privacy' is not the way to help a potential >suicide. > >I am not allowed to create new levels of security clearance. > >Furby (r) is not allowed into classified areas. (I swear to the gods, I did >not make that up, it's actually DOD policy). > >We do not 'charge into battle, naked, like the Celts'. > >Any device that can crawl across the table on medium, does not need to be >brought into the office. > >I am not to refer to a formation as 'the boxy rectangle thingie'. > >I am not 'A lesbian trapped in a man's body'. > >On Army documents, my race is not 'Other'. > >Nor is it 'Secretariat, in the third'. > >Pokemon(r) trainer is not an MOS. > >There is no FM for 'wall-to-wall counseling'. > >My chain of command has neither the time, nor the inclination to hear about >what I did with six boxes of Fruit Roll-Ups. (r) > >When operating a military vehicle I may *not* attempt something 'I saw in a >cartoon'. > >My name is not a killing word. > >I am not the Emperor of anything. > >Must not taunt officers in the throes of nicotine withdrawal, with >cigarettes. > >May not challenge officers to 'Meet me on the field of honor, at dawn'. > >Do not dare SERE graduates to eat bugs. They will always do it. > >Must not make s'mores while on guard duty. > >Our Humvees cannot be assembled into a giant battle-robot. > >The proper response to a briefing is not 'That's what you think'. > >The Masons, and Gray Aliens are not in our chain of command. > >Shouldn't take incriminating photos of my chain of command. > >Shouldn't use Photoshop (r) to create incriminating photos of my chain of >command. > >I am not allowed to give tattoos. > >I am not allowed to sing 'Henry the VIII I am' until verse 68 ever again. > >Not allowed to lead a 'Coup' during training missions. > >I should not confess to crimes that took place before I was born. > >My chain of command is not interested in why I 'just happen' to have a >kilt, an inflatable sheep, and a box of rubber bands in the back of my car. > >Must not valiantly push officers onto hand grenades to save the squad. > >Despite the confusing similarity in the names, the "Safety Dance" and the >"Safety Briefing" are never to be combined. > >'To conquer the earth with an army of flying monkeys" is a bad long term >goal to give the re-enlistment NCO. > >NEVER nail a stuffed bunny to a cross and put it up in front of the >Battalion Headquarters sign as an "Easter Desecration." > >Don't write up false gigs on a HMMWV PMCS. ("Broken clutch pedal", "Number >three turbine has frequent flame-outs", "flux capacitor emits loud whine >when engaged") > >Not allowed to get shot. > >The Chicken and Rice MRE is *not* a personal lubricant. (Skippy wanted this >noted for the record that this is not something he has ever attempted or >considered! It was something we heard at dinner on 22 September 2001 and it >was just so obscene it had to go here.) > >Not allowed to play into the deluded fantasies of the civlians who are >"hearing conversations" from the NSA, FBI, CIA and KGB due to the microchip >the aliens implanted in their brain. > >An airsickness bag is to be used for airsickness *only*. (Also not a >Skippy-ism...this was the same dinner.) > >Must not make T-shirts up depciting a pig with the writing "Eat Pork or >Die" in Arabic to bring as civilian attire when preparing to deploy to a >primarily Muslim country. > >Don't ask LTC Steele to sign my copy of Blackhawk Down. > >Must not go on nine deployments in six years that require a security >clearance that I don't have, even if the Army tells me repeatedly that I >have one and I have no reason to question them. > >Do not convince NCO's that their razorbumps are the result of microscopic >parasites. > >Posted by SGT Shawn Stanford at April 16, 2003 01:13 PM > > >"I solemnly swear I am up to no good." >-Marauders Map, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:57 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15KivG04976 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001e01c3ec1c$e693ef40$25a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <200402051610.i15GAbJT025874@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:18:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ah yes, Daniel, lovely. The story. The story. What is the rest ever but the crackling of thorns under a pot? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:56 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15Kiu604962 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:56 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 05 Feb 2004 09:45:38 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 05 Feb 2004 09:45:38 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40228132.ADC2.186D.000] Content-Identifier: 0344A40228142002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40228132.ADC2.186D.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 05 Feb 2004 09:45:38 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, orangelove@aol.com Subject: Re: Teddy? Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org To refresh.... "It's so silly," Teddy said again. "For example, I have a swimming lesson in about five minutes. I could go downstairs to the pool, and there might not be any water in it. This might be the day they change the water or something. What might happen, though, I might walk up to the edge of it, just to have a look at the bottom, for instance, and my sister might come up and sort of push me in. I could fracture my skull and die instantaneously." ---------------------------------- He (Nicholson) was little more than halfway down the staircase when he heard an all-piercing, sustained scream--clearly coming from a small, female child. It was highly acoustical, as though it were reverberating within four tiled walls. ---------------------------------- my thoughts? it's unlikely to me that salinger would have nicholson hearing the scream of a child falling. yes, the scream sounded as though it were reverberating within four tiled walls, but a fall into a swimming pool would not produce the long drawn out type of scream salinger describes. how long could a scream be in the short seconds it would take to hit the bottom? would there even be a scream? it sounds more like he's describing the scream of teddy's sister, face pointed down into the empty pool creating the acoustics, seeing what she's done, what teddy foresaw, in horror. THE END >>> orangelove@aol.com 02/05/04 09:08AM >>> Hi All, I recently re-read "Teddy" (for about the millionth time), and I'm still an ailing victim of that last paragraph! I thought I had the story understood until it ended, and now I'm totally confused. Any insight into the story? I'd welcome all ideas (and don't worry, I won't ask you to list all the books you've read in defense of your response. :) --Molly - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:56 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15Kiui04956 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040205173239.27915.qmail@web60905.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 09:32:39 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: New Yorker Rejection Slip? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yesterday, through sheer serendipity, I came across a 2000 interview with Updike in "The Missouri Review." There was one question re JDS. I quote: Interviewers: So your relationship was different than the one between Shawn and Salinger, who dedicated one of his books to Shawn. Updike: I think Salinger was closer to Shawn than I ever was. He began to publish in "The New Yorker" sometime in the '40s, so Shawn hadn't yet been elevated to editor-in-chief. I'm only guessing that their relationship was personally close and friendly. Shawn's opinion meant a lot to Salinger, I do believe. And Shawn stuck with Salinger, I think, longer than most editors would have. The stranger the stuff got, Shawn continued to print it. Some of it of course was quite brilliantly strange, but in the end I think even Shawn had to back off from Salinger's direction. This is all speculation on my part. *** I then recalled a Louise Bogan letter written at the time Hapworth came out: "The Salinger [Hapworth] is a disaster. B. Maxwell came to call, and rather deplored its total cessation of talent." And, finally, there was a tantilizing tidbit in Renata Adler's memoir of The New Yorker, "Gone," where she writes: "Salinger had invited me for a short visit to his house in the country. He said that the reason he chose not to publish the material he had been working on was to spare Mr. Shawn the burden of having to read, and to decide whether to publish, Salinger writing about sex." Linking these together, the dull idea dawned on me that perhaps the pages of The New Yorker were closed to Salinger after Hapworth. That Hapworth had become an embarassment for The New Yorker itself. And this change of heart on The New Yorker's part contributed to Salinger's decision not to publish at all. I'm not sure I believe this. But I do admit for the first time I wonder if this explains the not-publishing. Then again, in 1997, JDS evidently was going to put Hapworth between boards. One last note: the interviewers were Jan Ellen Spiegel and Will Hochman. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 15:44:55 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15KitA04951 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:44:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402051725.i15HPC7l017667@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Teddy? Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:25:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Teddy was a seer and unless you are a seer too you can't seer what he seers. Daniel I recently re-read "Teddy" (for about the millionth time), and I'm still an ailing victim of that last paragraph! I thought I had the story understood until it ended, and now I'm totally confused. Any insight into the story? I'd welcome all ideas (and don't worry, I won't ask you to list all the books you've read in defense of your response. :) --Molly - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:01:36 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15M1ac09050 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4022BF31.FD72F21B@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:09:53 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Teddy? References: <6403C5A0.45E6C241.0C6DCED6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org There's been some discussion of this in the past -- I didn't consider the ending ambiguous until I heard alternate readings. It always seemed to me that Teddy predicted he would get pushed into an empty pool by his little sister...and did. The sister screamed after doing so, not realizing until it was too late that the pool was empty. Jim orangelove@aol.com wrote: > Hi All, > > I recently re-read "Teddy" (for about the millionth time), and I'm still an ailing victim of that last paragraph! I thought I had the story understood until it ended, and now I'm totally confused. > > Any insight into the story? I'd welcome all ideas (and don't worry, I won't ask you to list all the books you've read in defense of your response. :) > > --Molly > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH orangelove@aol.com wrote: > Hi All, > > I recently re-read "Teddy" (for about the millionth time), and I'm still an ailing victim of that last paragraph! I thought I had the story understood until it ended, and now I'm totally confused. > > Any insight into the story? I'd welcome all ideas (and don't worry, I won't ask you to list all the books you've read in defense of your response. :) > > --Molly > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:01:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15M1bh09060 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:01:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4022C105.ADFB004@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:17:41 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts References: <200402051610.i15GAbJT025874@palisade.peterson.af.mil> <001e01c3ec1c$e693ef40$25a57dc2@j8l6n9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Dittos...was that yours, Daniel? Jim Scottie Bowman wrote: > Ah yes, Daniel, lovely. > > The story. The story. > > What is the rest ever but the crackling > of thorns under a pot? > > Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:01:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15M1b109061 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:01:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052147.i15LlJlg020873@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Options Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:47:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org ">The following items do not exist: Keys to the Drop Zone, A box of grid >squares, blinker fluid, winter air for tires, canopy lights, or Chem-Light >(r) batteries." In the Navy it was: bulkhead remover, squeege sharpeners, fallopian tubing, pipe stretchers, and muffler bearings. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:01:36 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15M1ac09044 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052132.i15LW7fe017064@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Story Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:32:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie, have you ever walked in the mountains alone knowing that there is not another human being around for well over 10 miles, and so you whistle at first to keep yourself company and before you know it you are singing at the top of your lungs with your unmusical voice and really enjoying it all? Daniel Ah yes, Daniel, lovely. The story. The story. What is the rest ever but the crackling of thorns under a pot? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:24:28 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15MOSj10298 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:24:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052207.i15M7I5K025869@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:07:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Thunk it up on my drive to work this morning, an unfractured fairy tale. Daniel -----Original Message----- From: James Rovira [mailto:jrovira@drew.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:18 PM To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts Dittos...was that yours, Daniel? Jim Scottie Bowman wrote: > Ah yes, Daniel, lovely. > > The story. The story. > > What is the rest ever but the crackling > of thorns under a pot? > > Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 17:24:28 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i15MOSd10303 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:24:28 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:08:20 EST Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_a3.51affa80.2d5418d4_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_a3.51affa80.2d5418d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Daniel, "Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the=20 sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can b= e=20 calculated in advance, and it becomes part of the ceremony." =20 And just so you know, my own politics remain outside the current Democratic=20 Party=E2=80=99s.=C2=A0 However, if I was working on that side, the best thin= g I could think=20 of to do to advance my cause would be to paste Tim=E2=80=99s post on the wal= l and=20 paste your initial response to him right next to it and say =E2=80=9Cthis is= the=20 difference between the two parties, this is the difference between the two w= orlds.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=20 =20 Incidentally, when I read your little anti-liberal tirade to Tim earlier, I=20 couldn't help being reminded of this writer named Jack Kerouac (you know, on= e=20 of those beatniks who were just like the hippies according to you).=C2=A0 In= 1958,=20 at the height of his popularity and well before there were hippies, he was=20 invited to be on a discussion panel at Brandeis University. When the local l= iberal=20 academics there started criticizing him for not being political, for not=20 being a liberal leader of his generation, he lost his temper, grabbed the=20 microphone and called them =E2=80=9Ccommunist little shits=E2=80=9D who had=20= =E2=80=9Cbetter be careful=E2=80=9D=20 because all they were going to get if they had their way was the =E2=80=9Cdi= sastrous=20 Sovietization of America.=E2=80=9D=20 =20 Yeah, I can see the similarities. =20 Keep writing, =20 --John PS: &nbsp;But when you're typing, you really should learn the difference= =20 between "its" and it's." &nbsp;As in, "It's a bad habit in its current s= tate in=20 your posts" --part1_a3.51affa80.2d5418d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Daniel,

"Leopards break into=20= the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this=20= is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, an= d it becomes part of the ceremony."

And just so you know, my own pol= itics remain outside the current Democratic Party=E2=80=99s.=C2=A0 However,=20= if I was working on that side, the best thing I could think of to do to adva= nce my cause would be to paste Tim=E2=80=99s post on the wall and paste your= initial response to him right next to it and say =E2=80=9Cthis is the diffe= rence between the two parties, this is the difference between the two worlds= .=E2=80=9D=C2=A0

Incidentally, when I read your little anti-liberal= tirade to Tim earlier, I couldn't help being reminded of this writer named=20= Jack Kerouac (you know, one of those beatniks who were just like the hippies= according to you).=C2=A0 In 1958, at the height of his popularity and well=20= before there were hippies, he was invited to be on a discussion panel at Bra= ndeis University. When the local liberal academics there started criticizing= him for not being political, for not being a liberal leader of his generati= on, he lost his temper, grabbed the microphone and called them =E2=80=9Ccomm= unist little shits=E2=80=9D who had =E2=80=9Cbetter be careful=E2=80=9D beca= use all they were going to get if they had their way was the =E2=80=9Cdisast= rous Sovietization of America.=E2=80=9D

Yeah, I can see the similar= ities.

Keep writing,

--John

PS: &nbsp;But when yo= u're typing, you really should learn the difference between "its" and it's."= &nbsp;As in, "It's a bad habit in its current state in your posts" --part1_a3.51affa80.2d5418d4_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 19:43:40 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i160hen16730 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040205225712.22042.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:57:12 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Teddy? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <4022BF31.FD72F21B@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I agree with Mike and Jim. And, as Mike said, Teddy is a seer. The ending--foreseeing his own death--validates this with an exclamation point. The story is, in my mind, Salinger's Coming Out of the Mysticism Closet. (Actually, "DDSmith's Blue Period" was the first story, but The New Yorker refused to publish it, and it appeared only in England before it was included in Nine Stories.) As you know, it introduces a young American mystic, sort of a forerunner to Seymour. It espouses certain Eastern tenets without irony. Though I don't think Teddy himself mentions Vedanta, the critic Eberhard Alsen makes a pretty good case that the story is suffused with it. And, biographically, it appeared after Salinger's own involvement with the Vedantic Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center in New York City. Though I'm sure there are those who would disagree, or say "how do you know?", the character Teddy, to me, is a mouthpiece for Salinger's then-burgeoning involvement with Eastern Religions, and his ideas on "education." As JDS has Buddy remark in "Zooey," that people are already shaking their heads regarding his mentioning of God in his stories--this headshaking dates from "Teddy." The story (along with its companion piece, "DDSmith's Blue Period"), for better or worse, is the prelude to the Glass stories, and marks the division between "acceptable" Salinger and "self indulgent" Salinger works. And, until the Salinger Estate allows any stories into print, we won't know if JDS ever turned his own back (as most critics already have done) on the Glass family. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 19:43:39 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i160hdV16719 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052254.i15Msjim007291@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Childish Acts Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:54:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i15Mstb11783 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John, here's a news flash just in that might help you. "Health Note Did you know that in the human body is a nerve that connects the eyeball to the anus? It is called the anal optic nerve. It is responsible for giving people a crappy outlook on life. If you don't believe it, pull a hair from your butt, and see if it doesn't bring a tear to your eye." Daniel "...this is the difference between the two worlds.â€" --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 19:43:41 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i160hfq16736 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206001827.15962.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:18:27 -0500 (EST) From: Anne "Thériault" Subject: Re: Teddy? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <4022BF31.FD72F21B@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The thing that I always wondered was whether Nicholson had some kind of prescient ability the way Teddy did - if this was one of the reasons that he had sought Teddy out. Because he does try to detain Teddy from going down to the pool, and then follows him once he does leave - but whether this is because he believes Teddy's story or has foreseen it himself I'm not sure. ~Anne p.s. I have a friend who thinks that Teddy's sister pushed him into the pool knowing that there was no water, intending to hurt him, because she's such a little brat. Who knows? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 19:43:39 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i160hd716712 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052232.i15MW8Cv002003@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:32:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org John, what is " "? Daniel --John PS:  But when you're typing, you really should learn the difference between "its" and it's."  As in, "It's a bad habit in its current state in your posts" - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 19:43:40 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i160hen16731 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:43:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402052353.i15Nrjxp017071@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Cornish guards Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:53:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Jim, if you say something like this again I'll have to kick your butt. Daniel One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 20:55:37 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i161tbe19845 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:55:37 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <9d.441de9a6.2d5442d7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:07:35 EST Subject: Re: Childish Acts To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9d.441de9a6.2d5442d7_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_9d.441de9a6.2d5442d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Sorry, but my "outlook on life" suits me just fine. And the letters you cited are computer code which apparently appeared as the post moved from Word through AOL and onto the list. All the best, --John --part1_9d.441de9a6.2d5442d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel,

Sorry, but my "outlook on life" suits me just fine.

And the letters you cited are computer code which apparently appeared as= the post moved from Word through AOL and onto the list.

All the best,

--John

--part1_9d.441de9a6.2d5442d7_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 5 20:55:36 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i161ta019840 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:55:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 19:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Re: greetings To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <6210006.1076028637860.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Esme Four, Thank you for your reply. I also feel that Holden is pretty normal and if adolescence is not a form of insanity it could at least be a major cause (for me anyway). I hate to be one of those people that asks for a mile when given an inch but I have to say you're Franny comment left me intrigued. I won't ask you for details as to why it hit home, but do you think there is anything in 'Franny' that would help a male teacher (i.e. me) understand adolescent females better? (didn't understand them then, don't now). Any insights would be most appreciated. Thanks. -Mike Esme Four wrote: > >Hi Mike, My own breakdowns and insanity aside, I think >that Catcher and F&Z present some interesting >psychological conflicts for adolescents to >consider...sometimes when you're crazy (Isn't >adolesence a form of insanity? Perhaps our resident >psychiatrist and crazy man himself--Scottie--would >know?)or at least not understanding "real worlds," >reading about others going nuts like you helps...but >then again, I thought Holden was pretty normal...I >won't comment on Franny though...too close to home. > >Esm? 4 > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. >http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:06 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H76e00123 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:16:19 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:16:19 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4023BDCB.ADC2.7BE5.000] Content-Identifier: 048AB4023BDD3002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4023BDCB.ADC2.7BE5.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 06 Feb 2004 08:16:19 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Cornish guards Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org wrong verb. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/05/04 04:44PM >>> Jim, if you say something like this again I'll have to kick your butt. Daniel One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:05 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H75C00115 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206151024.93805.qmail@web13904.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:10:24 -0800 (PST) From: David Johnson Subject: Re: Teddy? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040205225712.22042.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1460672594-1076080224=:93405" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-1460672594-1076080224=:93405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Has anybody ever heard why the New Yorker rejected "De Daumier-Smith's Blue Period"? City Cabin wrote: I agree with Mike and Jim. And, as Mike said, Teddy is a seer. The ending--foreseeing his own death--validates this with an exclamation point. The story is, in my mind, Salinger's Coming Out of the Mysticism Closet. (Actually, "DDSmith's Blue Period" was the first story, but The New Yorker refused to publish it, and it appeared only in England before it was included in Nine Stories.) As you know, it introduces a young American mystic, sort of a forerunner to Seymour. It espouses certain Eastern tenets without irony. Though I don't think Teddy himself mentions Vedanta, the critic Eberhard Alsen makes a pretty good case that the story is suffused with it. And, biographically, it appeared after Salinger's own involvement with the Vedantic Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center in New York City. Though I'm sure there are those who would disagree, or say "how do you know?", the character Teddy, to me, is a mouthpiece for Salinger's then-burgeoning involvement with Eastern Religions, and his ideas on "education." As JDS has Buddy remark in "Zooey," that people are already shaking their heads regarding his mentioning of God in his stories--this headshaking dates from "Teddy." The story (along with its companion piece, "DDSmith's Blue Period"), for better or worse, is the prelude to the Glass stories, and marks the division between "acceptable" Salinger and "self indulgent" Salinger works. And, until the Salinger Estate allows any stories into print, we won't know if JDS ever turned his own back (as most critics already have done) on the Glass family. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1460672594-1076080224=:93405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Has anybody ever heard why the New Yorker rejected "De Daumier-Smith's Blue Period"? 

City Cabin <citycabn@yahoo.com> wrote:

I agree with Mike and Jim.

And, as Mike said, Teddy is a seer. The
ending--foreseeing his own death--validates this with
an exclamation point.

The story is, in my mind, Salinger's Coming Out of the
Mysticism Closet. (Actually, "DDSmith's Blue Period"
was the first story, but The New Yorker refused to
publish it, and it appeared only in England before it
was included in Nine Stories.) As you know, it
introduces a young American mystic, sort of a
forerunner to Seymour. It espouses certain Eastern
tenets without irony. Though I don't think Teddy
himself mentions Vedanta, the critic Eberhard Alsen
makes a pretty good case that the story is suffused
with it. And, biographically, it appeared after
Salinger's own involvement with the Vedantic
Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center in New York City.
Though I'm sure there are those who would disagree, or
say "how do you know?", the character Teddy, to me, is
a mouthpiece for Salinger's then-burgeoning
involvement with Eastern Religions, and his ideas on
"education." As JDS has Buddy remark in "Zooey," that
people are already shaking their heads regarding his
mentioning of God in his stories--this headshaking
dates from "Teddy." The story (along with its
companion piece, "DDSmith's Blue Period"), for better
or worse, is the prelude to the Glass stories, and
marks the division between "acceptable" Salinger and
"self indulgent" Salinger works. And, until the
Salinger Estate allows any stories into print, we
won't know if JDS ever turned his own back (as most
critics already have done) on the Glass family.

--Bruce


__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1460672594-1076080224=:93405-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:06 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H76K00118 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:15:17 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:15:17 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4023BD8F.ADC2.7BB6.000] Content-Identifier: 047424023BD95002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4023BD8F.ADC2.7BB6.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 06 Feb 2004 08:15:17 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, ruby_twitch@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Teddy? Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org i bet nicholson had a hunch. news guys are always having those. i have a friend who thinks that nobody died at the end. he thinks teddy and his sister were looking down in the empty pool and they saw holden caulfield at the bottom scrubbing the tiles, and when he looked up at them, giving them the biggest of smiles, he had serrated teeth and an odd grey/green skin tone. naturally, the sister screams. but since teddy foresaw this, he was fine. -mike >>> ruby_twitch@yahoo.com 02/05/04 04:44PM >>> The thing that I always wondered was whether Nicholson had some kind of prescient ability the way Teddy did - if this was one of the reasons that he had sought Teddy out. Because he does try to detain Teddy from going down to the pool, and then follows him once he does leave - but whether this is because he believes Teddy's story or has foreseen it himself I'm not sure. ~Anne p.s. I have a friend who thinks that Teddy's sister pushed him into the pool knowing that there was no water, intending to hurt him, because she's such a little brat. Who knows? ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:07 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H77100139 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:22:15 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 08:22:15 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4023BF33.ADC2.7CAD.000] Content-Identifier: 052AC4023BF37001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4023BF33.ADC2.7CAD.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 06 Feb 2004 08:22:15 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, Omlor@aol.com Subject: Re: Childish Acts Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org you've got a lot of nerve, dan. all the worst, --john >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/05/04 05:56PM >>> Daniel, Sorry, but my "outlook on life" suits me just fine. And the letters you cited are computer code which apparently appeared as the post moved from Word through AOL and onto the list. All the best, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:07 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H77E00141 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402061641.i16GfQMU027675@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'ANELLO Michael J'" , bananafish@roughdraft.org, Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE Subject: RE: Cornish guards Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:41:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Sorry mike, not "say" but "write". Daniel PS Mike it is called an anal-optic nerve not an anal-oral nerve. My intent would be to bring a tear to his eye not a rush of saliva to your mouth. wrong verb. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/05/04 04:44PM >>> Jim, if you say something like this again I'll have to kick your butt. Daniel One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 12:07:06 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16H76700129 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4023BF5E.30605@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:22:54 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Average Junior High School Stylings and Childish Acts References: <200402052207.i15M7I5K025869@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402052207.i15M7I5K025869@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Dang good stuff, Daniel. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Thunk it up on my drive to work this morning, an unfractured fairy tale. >Daniel > > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 13:40:31 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16IeVL05770 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206175543.6434.qmail@web60909.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: William Maxwell re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org It [a 1942 story] would have worked out better for us [The New Yorker] if Mr. Salinger had not strained so for cleverness. We think Mr. Salinger is a very talented young man and wish to God you could get him to write simply and naturally. --1943 We liked parts of "The Bananafish" by J. D. Salinger very much but it seems to us to lack any discoverable story or point. If Mr. Salinger is around town, perhaps he'd like to come in and talk to me about New Yorker stories. --1947 Alec Wilkinson, in "My Mentor," writes that after JDS finished Catcher he drove over to the Maxwells' country home and, over an afternoon, read the entire manuscript to Bill and Emmy Maxwell. ... it means a great deal to say that a novelist *works* like Flaubert (which Salinger does) with infinite labor, infinite patience and infinite thought for the technical aspects of what he is writing, none of which must show in the final draft. Such writers go straight to heaven when they die, and their books are not forgotten. --1951, in Maxwell's Book of the Month Club notes for Catcher I do feel that Salinger has to be handled specially and fast, and think that the only practical way of doing this is as I supposed Shawn did do it--by himself. Given the length of the stories, I mean, and the Zen Buddhist nature of them, and what happened with Zooey. [Zooey was unanimously rejected by the New Yorker fiction editors, which included Maxwell] --1959 letter to Katharine White. B. Maxwell came to call, and rather deplored its total cessation of talent. --1965 Louise Bogan letter at the time of Hapworth's publication Emmy and I used to see something of J.D. Salinger before he retired to a private corner of Vermont, and you have no idea the pleasure it gives me to say to aspiring young Ph.D. candidates, "Mr. Salinger doesn't like his friends to discuss him *or* his work." --1967 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 13:40:30 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16IeUK05759 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:40:30 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 09:22:50 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 09:22:50 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4023CD64.ADC2.878F.000] Content-Identifier: 057554023CD6A007 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4023CD64.ADC2.878F.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 06 Feb 2004 09:22:50 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, djohnso2001@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Teddy? Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org senor alexander says: lobrano wrote to salinger with alarming news. the new yorker editors were rejecting "de daumier-smith's blue period," which olding had recently submitted to them. deciding not to buy the story had turned into a terrible ordeal for them, lobrano said, but ultimately the editors did not feel the piece succeeded. the notion behind the story was too complicated, lobrano believed; its events were "too compressed." finally, the piece seemed almost willfully strange, which lobrano knew wasn't true, but that was how it seemed. salinger was affected by this rejection more than most, not only because he had worked so hard on the story, but because he had reached the point where the new yorker accepted almost any story he submitted to them. on November 15, 1951, salinger wrote to lobrano to tell him he was profoundly disheartened by the rejection. it was a short letter. >>> djohnso2001@yahoo.com 02/06/04 09:10AM >>> Has anybody ever heard why the New Yorker rejected "De Daumier-Smith's Blue Period"? City Cabin wrote: I agree with Mike and Jim. And, as Mike said, Teddy is a seer. The ending--foreseeing his own death--validates this with an exclamation point. The story is, in my mind, Salinger's Coming Out of the Mysticism Closet. (Actually, "DDSmith's Blue Period" was the first story, but The New Yorker refused to publish it, and it appeared only in England before it was included in Nine Stories.) As you know, it introduces a young American mystic, sort of a forerunner to Seymour. It espouses certain Eastern tenets without irony. Though I don't think Teddy himself mentions Vedanta, the critic Eberhard Alsen makes a pretty good case that the story is suffused with it. And, biographically, it appeared after Salinger's own involvement with the Vedantic Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center in New York City. Though I'm sure there are those who would disagree, or say "how do you know?", the character Teddy, to me, is a mouthpiece for Salinger's then-burgeoning involvement with Eastern Religions, and his ideas on "education." As JDS has Buddy remark in "Zooey," that people are already shaking their heads regarding his mentioning of God in his stories--this headshaking dates from "Teddy." The story (along with its companion piece, "DDSmith's Blue Period"), for better or worse, is the prelude to the Glass stories, and marks the division between "acceptable" Salinger and "self indulgent" Salinger works. And, until the Salinger Estate allows any stories into print, we won't know if JDS ever turned his own back (as most critics already have done) on the Glass family. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 13:40:30 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16IeU405753 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:40:30 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 09:12:52 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 06 Feb 2004 09:12:52 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4023CB09.ADC2.85C5.000] Content-Identifier: 0431A4023CB14002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4023CB09.ADC2.85C5.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 06 Feb 2004 09:12:52 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Cornish guards Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org damn, baby >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/06/04 09:10AM >>> Sorry mike, not "say" but "write". Daniel PS Mike it is called an anal-optic nerve not an anal-oral nerve. My intent would be to bring a tear to his eye not a rush of saliva to your mouth. wrong verb. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/05/04 04:44PM >>> Jim, if you say something like this again I'll have to kick your butt. Daniel One thing about which we definitely agree, Tim. It was almost like reading Ferlinghetti.... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 13:40:31 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16IeVX05765 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402061749.i16HnrUh016723@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Childish Acts Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:49:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org It's so big "John" that every time I sit on the toilet my eyes bulge out. Daniel you've got a lot of nerve, dan. all the worst, --john >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/05/04 05:56PM >>> Daniel, Sorry, but my "outlook on life" suits me just fine. And the letters you cited are computer code which apparently appeared as the post moved from Word through AOL and onto the list. All the best, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 15:26:01 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16KQ1j11116 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206185306.44481.qmail@web13904.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:53:06 -0800 (PST) From: David Johnson Subject: Re: William Maxwell re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040206175543.6434.qmail@web60909.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1383622719-1076093586=:43823" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-1383622719-1076093586=:43823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Bruce. I had not read most of these comments before. Interesting that "Zooey" was unanimously rejected, which means that Shawn must have overriden them all. Wonder how THAT played out in the New Yorker offices? I also wonder if Shawn persuaded JDS to revise any of it before publication. David City Cabin wrote: It [a 1942 story] would have worked out better for us [The New Yorker] if Mr. Salinger had not strained so for cleverness. We think Mr. Salinger is a very talented young man and wish to God you could get him to write simply and naturally. --1943 We liked parts of "The Bananafish" by J. D. Salinger very much but it seems to us to lack any discoverable story or point. If Mr. Salinger is around town, perhaps he'd like to come in and talk to me about New Yorker stories. --1947 Alec Wilkinson, in "My Mentor," writes that after JDS finished Catcher he drove over to the Maxwells' country home and, over an afternoon, read the entire manuscript to Bill and Emmy Maxwell. ... it means a great deal to say that a novelist *works* like Flaubert (which Salinger does) with infinite labor, infinite patience and infinite thought for the technical aspects of what he is writing, none of which must show in the final draft. Such writers go straight to heaven when they die, and their books are not forgotten. --1951, in Maxwell's Book of the Month Club notes for Catcher I do feel that Salinger has to be handled specially and fast, and think that the only practical way of doing this is as I supposed Shawn did do it--by himself. Given the length of the stories, I mean, and the Zen Buddhist nature of them, and what happened with Zooey. [Zooey was unanimously rejected by the New Yorker fiction editors, which included Maxwell] --1959 letter to Katharine White. B. Maxwell came to call, and rather deplored its total cessation of talent. --1965 Louise Bogan letter at the time of Hapworth's publication Emmy and I used to see something of J.D. Salinger before he retired to a private corner of Vermont, and you have no idea the pleasure it gives me to say to aspiring young Ph.D. candidates, "Mr. Salinger doesn't like his friends to discuss him *or* his work." --1967 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1383622719-1076093586=:43823 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Thanks, Bruce.  I had not read most of these comments before.  Interesting that "Zooey" was unanimously rejected, which means that Shawn must have overriden them all.  Wonder how THAT played out in the New Yorker offices?  I also wonder if Shawn persuaded JDS to revise any of it before publication. 
David

City Cabin <citycabn@yahoo.com> wrote:
It [a 1942 story] would have worked out better for us
[The New Yorker] if Mr. Salinger had not strained so
for cleverness.


We think Mr. Salinger is a very talented young man and
wish to God you could get him to write simply and
naturally. --1943


We liked parts of "The Bananafish" by J. D. Salinger
very much but it seems to us to lack any discoverable
story or point. If Mr. Salinger is around town,
perhaps he'd like to come in and talk to me about New
Yorker stories. --1947


Alec Wilkinson, in "My Mentor," writes that after JDS
finished Catcher he drove over to the Maxwells'
country home and, over an afternoon, read the entire
manuscript to Bill and Emmy Maxwell.


... it means a great deal to say that a novelist
*works* like Flaubert (which Salinger does) with
infinite labor, infinite patience and infinite thought
for the technical aspects of what he is writing, none
of which must show in the final draft. Such writers
go straight to heaven when they die, and their books
are not forgotten. --1951, in Maxwell's Book of the
Month Club notes for Catcher


I do feel that Salinger has to be handled specially
and fast, and think that the only practical way of
doing this is as I supposed Shawn did do it--by
himself. Given the length of the stories, I mean, and
the Zen Buddhist nature of them, and what happened
with Zooey.
[Zooey was unanimously rejected by the New Yorker
fiction editors, which included Maxwell] --1959 letter
to Katharine White.


B. Maxwell came to call, and rather deplored its total
cessation of talent. --1965 Louise Bogan letter at the
time of Hapworth's publication


Emmy and I used to see something of J.D. Salinger
before he retired to a private corner of Vermont, and
you have no idea th e pleasure it gives me to say to
aspiring young Ph.D. candidates, "Mr. Salinger doesn't
like his friends to discuss him *or* his work." --1967


--Bruce

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --0-1383622719-1076093586=:43823-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 15:26:01 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16KQ1m11111 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402061851.i16Ip6s5029871@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: William Maxwell re JDS Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:51:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Good thing we are not his friends. Daniel Emmy and I used to see something of J.D. Salinger before he retired to a private corner of Vermont, and you have no idea the pleasure it gives me to say to aspiring young Ph.D. candidates, "Mr. Salinger doesn't like his friends to discuss him *or* his work." --1967 --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 18:50:26 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16NoQN21416 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:50:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206221631.81070.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 14:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: William Maxwell re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040206185306.44481.qmail@web13904.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- David Johnson wrote: > Interesting that "Zooey" was > unanimously rejected, which means that Shawn must > have overriden them all. Yes. And at that point became Salinger's sole reader and editor. (If I understand it correctly, Maxwell was his first editor; followed by Lobrano.) > Wonder how THAT played out > in the New Yorker offices? I imagine not so swell. In retrospect, it seems that Salinger became one of Shawn's pet projects from Zooey on. And this dovetails with my speculation of yesterday. If Zooey failed to win admirers at the magazine, imagine how Seymour played out when the issue was published, and Hapworth must have made the previous 2 works seem positively fetching. Perhaps after Hapworth, even Shawn started to listen to the grumbles. But who knows. > I also wonder if Shawn > persuaded JDS to revise any of it before > publication. > I have a vague recollection that Alexander quotes sources that Shawn did edit it quite a bit. (Perhaps Mike could weigh in. Loved the DDSBP post, Mike.) And hence the dedication in 1961. Glad you liked the collage. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 18:50:26 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16NoQq21415 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:50:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040206211725.13940.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:17:25 -0500 (EST) From: Anne "Thériault" Subject: Re: Teddy? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <4023BD8F.ADC2.7BB6.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org That's the best theory regarding the ending of Teddy that I've ever heard! Pure genius. ~Anne --- ANELLO Michael J wrote: > i bet nicholson had a hunch. news guys are always > having those. > > i have a friend who thinks that nobody died at the > end. he thinks teddy and > his sister were looking down in the empty pool and > they saw holden caulfield > at the bottom scrubbing the tiles, and when he > looked up at them, giving them > the biggest of smiles, he had serrated teeth and an > odd grey/green skin tone. > naturally, the sister screams. > > but since teddy foresaw this, he was fine. > > -mike > > >>> ruby_twitch@yahoo.com 02/05/04 04:44PM >>> > The thing that I always wondered was whether > Nicholson > had some kind of prescient ability the way Teddy did > - > if this was one of the reasons that he had sought > Teddy out. Because he does try to detain Teddy from > going down to the pool, and then follows him once he > does leave - but whether this is because he believes > Teddy's story or has foreseen it himself I'm not > sure. > ~Anne > p.s. I have a friend who thinks that Teddy's sister > pushed him into the pool knowing that there was no > water, intending to hurt him, because she's such a > little brat. Who knows? > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 18:50:25 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i16NoPI21405 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:50:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501c3ecf5$5e4f3de0$24a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <200402051722.i15HMfol016811@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Subject: late onset adolescence Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 21:07:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org For good, high quality, rollicking craziness give me a seven year old child any day; or perhaps a batty postmenopausal lady; or some seventy year old dotard with nothing left to lose. Adolescence is highly enjoyable because of the immediacy of the senses & the urgency of the instinctual drives. But to the outside observer it looks a dreary enough phase with its dominant features of self consciousness, self-pity, sentimentality & the longing to conform. What I find from my great eminence is that one does not outgrow the earlier phases of one's development but simply keeps adding more layers. A little imagination & a little digging are all that's required to reverse time's arrow. For myself I've finally decided that the age which suits me best is 12 years & 3 months: lots of women, some wizard good books & films & - above all - the ever stimulating presence of war. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 19:01:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1701uQ21829 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:01:56 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: 1000 days : a milestone Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:01:01 -0500 Message-Id: <20040207000101.18649@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Some mail from Robbie, related to recent problems getting mail delivered to hotmail users, focused my attention on another neat milestone. Those who get this list in digest form will notice that today was message #1000. It's not, strictly speaking, 1000 days, since the digest gets triggered either daily OR when it has a certain amount to go out. But nonetheless, it's a nice point. Circulation is up! And advertising is still at an historic low! (Uh, you can sort of infer that I am reading the new Ken Auletta book, BACKSTORY, about modern journalism, much derived from his Annals of Communication articles in the New Yorker.) I feel compelled, because sometimes people read literally what I mean to be not literal, to point out that I am joking about ads. There never were any and as long as I tidy up this house, there won't be any! By the way, some hotmail users are still being rejected because their mailboxes are full. I don't know why I mention it here, since said users won't see this ... but I figured I'd let the word out. If you correspond with hotmail people successfully, and they are missing their list traffic, I can always bounce copies of the digests to them, if they let me know what they are missing. Aside from that, things are working smoothly, though still on manual. (We have had dozens ... I've lost count ... of virus-infected messages aimed at the list. Luckily, nothing has been passed along.) Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 20:02:11 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1712B724397 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:02:11 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <3b.43373b00.2d5584f6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 19:01:58 EST Subject: Spectral Excess To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3b.43373b00.2d5584f6_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_3b.43373b00.2d5584f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My dear Michael, How thoroughly I have haunted you. I do apologize. All the... --part1_3b.43373b00.2d5584f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My dear Michael,

How thoroughly I have haunted you.

I do apologize.

All the...
--part1_3b.43373b00.2d5584f6_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 6 20:23:53 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i171Nrg25093 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 2004 20:23:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 20:22:30 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden vs. Spencer To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <1409201.1076116950133.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, First, I wanted to say to Scottie B that I enjoyed your thoughts on adolescence. They are a helpful start on my strange quest back into my teenage mind. Now, I was curious as to everyone's thoughts on Holden's visit to Spencer. Whom do you empathize with and why? I feel that Spencer has the best of intentions and he wants nothing more than for Holden to care about himself and his future, and I think Holden does want to please Spencer but does not know why he should care. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 09:46:08 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i17Ek8p28040 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:46:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 22:55:11 -0600 From: "James Tarleton" To: Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I just lurk on this list, but thought I'd speak up. Hey everyone. As for Mr. Spencer, the line, "do you blame me for flunking you?" cracks me up every time. Blame, or the locus of control, seems to be a recurring theme. Holden projects blame onto externals, but as evidenced in his critique of the conversation with the nuns ("I'm not saying I blame Catholics. I'd be that way too, probably, if I were a Catholic.), he eventually gets better at seeing things from others' perspectives. I agree that Spencer has good intentions, but his lack of humility turns Holden off. I think from Holden's persepective, he's dead. He sold out and died for a noble cause. The "essay" about mummification and the Egyptians makes the scene that much more hilarious. --JamesT - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 09:46:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i17Ek9328041 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:46:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040207133900.86408.qmail@web41705.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 05:39:00 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: greetings To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <6210006.1076028637860.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I think Salinger gave us Franny to teach us about over teaching kids...it's like her brothers crammed her full of spiritual learning but she may have finally learned it's her own path, not theirs, that she must find. I guess one way to understand Franny as a "male teacher" (instead of a Postman Professor?) might be to compare Holden and Franny. They seem a more likely pair than Franny and Zooey. Esmé4 --- Michael Allen Nowek wrote: > Hello Esme Four, > Thank you for your reply. I also feel that Holden is > pretty normal and > if adolescence is not a form of insanity it could at > least be a major > cause (for me anyway). I hate to be one of those > people that asks for a > mile when given an inch but I have to say you're > Franny comment left me > intrigued. I won't ask you for details as to why it > hit home, but do > you think there is anything in 'Franny' that would > help a male teacher > (i.e. me) understand adolescent females better? > (didn't understand them > then, don't now). Any insights would be most > appreciated. Thanks. > -Mike > > > Esme Four wrote: > > > > > >Hi Mike, My own breakdowns and insanity aside, I > think > >that Catcher and F&Z present some interesting > >psychological conflicts for adolescents to > >consider...sometimes when you're crazy (Isn't > >adolesence a form of insanity? Perhaps our resident > >psychiatrist and crazy man himself--Scottie--would > >know?)or at least not understanding "real worlds," > >reading about others going nuts like you > helps...but > >then again, I thought Holden was pretty normal...I > >won't comment on Franny though...too close to home. > > > >Esm? 4 > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing > online. > >http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html > >- > >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 09:46:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i17Ek9p28049 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:46:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040207134924.3359.qmail@web41703.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 05:49:24 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <1409201.1076116950133.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi Mike, I really like your questions and this one made me think that I really like teachers that care but not when they are sick and too ugly to look at...and aren't they the ones that try the hardest? It's never the buff, handsome professors that ask me if they can help, just the frogs who wish to be kissed. (I'l bet John's a real hotie in his Mercedes!) I guess Spencer wished his kids cared more about what he was teaching and knew Holden could care and wanted to help himself and Holden see what was blocking the learning. Still, I would never visit a teacher like Spenser if I didn't have to. Holden may have deserved to be kicked out of school in the fifties (they got upset when you chewed gum, for christsakes!) but these days he would have gotten a special counselor or teacher for disturbed kids and if she was a girl, you know he'd have had a crush on her, Esmé 4 --- Michael Allen Nowek wrote: > Hello Everyone, > First, I wanted to say to Scottie B that I enjoyed > your thoughts on > adolescence. They are a helpful start on my strange > quest back into my > teenage mind. Now, I was curious as to everyone's > thoughts on Holden's > visit to Spencer. Whom do you empathize with and > why? I feel that > Spencer has the best of intentions and he wants > nothing more than for > Holden to care about himself and his future, and I > think Holden does > want to please Spencer but does not know why he > should care. Any > thoughts? > -Mike N > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 12:11:42 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i17HBgU03073 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:11:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040207154402.22879.qmail@web41713.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:44:02 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org JamesT you said what I meant only better. What about Antolini? Same prob? No humility? Esmé 4 > I agree that Spencer has good intentions, but his > lack of humility turns > Holden off. I think from Holden's persepective, > he's dead. He sold out > and died for a noble cause. The "essay" about > mummification and the > Egyptians makes the scene that much more hilarious. > > --JamesT > > > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with > the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 16:57:40 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i17Lve213794 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:57:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001201c3edaa$bb72ec00$57a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <20040207134924.3359.qmail@web41703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:46:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org (I'l bet John's a real hotie in his Mercedes!) Zowie! Esmé, Esmé, haven't you heard the old folk wisdom ? Big red Mercedes Tiny pink .... Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 20:53:42 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i181rgK22526 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:53:42 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:29:44 EST Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was waiting, Scottie. But it took you longer than I thought. Still, at least you are reliable. All the best, --John PS: For what it's worth, the car is neither big nor red. It's small and black. --part1_1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was waiting, Scottie.

But it took you longer than I thought.

Still, at least you are reliable.

All the best,

--John

PS: For what it's worth, the car is neither big nor red.  It's smal= l and black.
--part1_1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 20:53:43 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i181rhA22527 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:53:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Antolini-Pervert or Concerned Teacher (or both)? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <4865991.1076203461211.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hi everyone, Thank you for your helpful responses. I am interested in hearing how you all feel about whether Antolini really tried to get too 'friendly' with Holden or if Holden was just overreacting. How would you compare Antolini to Spencer? Did he have a 'Jacko'-style crush on Holden or was his concern for Holden pure and genuine? Also (before the head petting incident), do you think he was getting through to Holden better than Spencer, or like Esme suggested, did he too lack humility? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 7 21:08:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1828uR23096 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:08:56 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Antolini-Pervert or Concerned Teacher (or both)? Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:08:31 -0500 Message-Id: <20040208020831.4280@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <4865991.1076203461211.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> References: <4865991.1076203461211.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Sat, Feb 7, 2004, nowekm1@southernct.edu said: >Thank you for your helpful responses. I am interested in hearing how >you all feel about whether Antolini really tried to get too 'friendly' >with Holden or if Holden was just overreacting. How would you compare >Antolini to Spencer? Did he have a 'Jacko'-style crush on Holden or was >his concern for Holden pure and genuine? Also (before the head petting >incident), do you think he was getting through to Holden better than >Spencer, or like Esme suggested, did he too lack humility? Hi, Mike. Please accept a belated welcome to the list! I've been thinking about this, myself, because for the longest time I felt that Holden was genuinely running away from something threatening. Then recently I reread all the Salinger books, and paid special attention to the Antolini episode, maybe because I'm more conscious of the kinds of abuse that happen between trusted adults and trusted children. And you know what? I left that passage genuinely bewildered and more than a little changed. There is so much to like about Antolini -- he especially serves the valuable role of warning Holden that he is heading for a fall, which is probably more honest than anyone else has been to Holden, except perhaps Phoebe -- and while it's certainly a source of discomfort, I am not so sure that it was, as Holden says, "perverty." I think it could be argued either way. On one side you could argue that Mrs. Antolini was (to use a contemporary term) a beard for her husband. On the other side, you could possibly conclude that Antolini was just expressing care, not unlike the tenderness Holden himself expresses for Phoebe. That Antolini-to-Holden & Holden-to-Phoebe link is crucial In fact, if you think about it from the perspective of our time, even Holden could be considered a dodgy character: approaching the girl in the park, helping her with her skates, asking after one of her classmates, guiding the kids looking for the mummies ... all that could point (in our paranoid time) to Holden being "perverty" himself. I think it's a wistful part of the book that we have lost that kind of innocence in our lives, probably forever. All in all I think it's a mixed situation, but this time around I found myself not reacting viscerally to Antolini, and thinking, instead, that he was one of the saner voices in the book. Anyway, thanks for triggering the thoughts, and enjoy the list! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 03:04:14 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1884EM06369 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 03:04:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:59:28 -0600 From: "James Tarleton" To: Subject: Re: Antolini-Pervert or Concerned Teacher (or both)? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I agree with Tim, it could be argued either way. Because of perceptual bias, whether Antolini was being gay depends on your perspective as a reader. His intent and whether he's perverted or innocent depends on how you look at it. You can't tell for certain. I also think if there's one thing causes Holden trouble, it is uncertainty. For instance, the words "certain" or "certainly" appear at least 45 times in the novel. Granted this number pales in comparison to "goddam" which is something like 265 (give or take) but I thought it was still worth noting. --JamesT - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 09:58:38 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18Ewcm21232 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:58:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4025FDBD.6088065B@drew.edu> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 04:13:33 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Antolini-Pervert or Concerned Teacher (or both)? References: <4865991.1076203461211.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> <20040208020831.4280@mail.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org What makes it difficult is that it's entirely possible for Holden, and the reader's intuition (that Antolini was one of the saner voices in the book), to both be true at the same time. He could be both the good things we think of him and a latent homosexual. I think any possibility of latent homosexuality on A's part was enough to scare away Holden, but I think the possibility of -both- being true at the same time was even harder for him to accept. This limitation at this point in the story would be consistent (by way of contrast) with the demonstrated growth Holden experienced by the end of the story -- growth that allowed him to see potential in the phonies too and start missing everyone. I would say that A. certainly crossed some legitimate boundaries by stroking Holden's hair -- I don't think that was an appropriate gesture, esp. since Holden was asleep and in A's house. But it could have proceeded from either something like fatherly affection, or from homosexual desire. The narrative doesn't offer many clues either way. I got the impression that A. had been out drinking with his wife and his inhibitions were a bit down at that point. Holden didn't give A. enough of a chance to find out for himself what was behind his affection, and I think that's more to the point. I agree with Esme's indentification of Holden with Franny, by the way. They're both going through the same kind of crisis and working toward the same kind of resolution; the resolution is just more pronounced in Franny's case. Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: > > All in all I think it's a mixed situation, but this time around I found > myself not reacting viscerally to Antolini, and thinking, instead, that > he was one of the saner voices in the book. > > Anyway, thanks for triggering the thoughts, and enjoy the list! > > --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 09:58:38 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18EwcE21244 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:58:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000701c3ee39$8905a160$2ca57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <1e8.18573fd6.2d56dcf8@aol.com> Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:48:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Me? I'm not angry. Honest. I've got PLENTY of money. I reely reely don't need an ostentatious car. 3 - 0 Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 09:58:38 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18Ewc621243 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:58:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40260066.91C00D6B@drew.edu> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 04:24:54 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: my son, my son... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This cracked me up so I had to share it. I'd sent an e-mail to my oldest son with a link to web photo albums of my new baby boy (born Jan. 2, Caleb Penn Lorraine Rovira), telling him I finally completed my last comprehesive exam so would be granted an M.Phil. degree in May, that I'd send him a disk with Microsoft Office on it pretty soon, and that I'd also send him some prints of the new kid (he had asked for some earlier). On an aside, I told him that the letter "v" wasn't working on the computer I was using at the time (the one I'm using now, actually), so if my word choice seems odd, I'm just trying to work around cutting and pasting that letter any time (notice I didn't say "every" time) I wanted to use it. His response is below. Ha. Jim > Thanks in advance for the Office Package and the > veritable bivvy of voluminous pictures. The little > juvenile has quite the vivacious visage. I divine, > verily, that I did not sound vaguely vindictive in my > vast requests for them. Were you vexxed? Venture to > include the parents as well. > > Congratulations on your degree, father mine. I hope > you find occupation in the field of your choice quite > soon. > > Love, > Josh > > P.S.- Mocking you > V v V v V v V v V v > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 15:02:36 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18K2al01543 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:02:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000701c3ee7d$0b111f20$f025fea9@a> From: "Diego M. Dell'Era" To: References: <200402072158.i17Lw6313816@dont.panix.com> Subject: Re: late onset adolescence Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:51:04 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie said: "For myself I've finally decided that the age which suits me best is 12 years & 3 months: lots of women, some wizard good books & films & - above all - the ever stimulating presence of war." Indeed! That was a great time for me, too. However, I tend to remember it as 'lots of computer manuals, some wizard friends and books, and – above all – the ever frightening presence of women.' Saludos, Diego D. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 15:02:36 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18K2aS01542 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:02:36 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <6b.223747fc.2d57b75a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:01:30 EST Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6b.223747fc.2d57b75a_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_6b.223747fc.2d57b75a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You lost me, Scottie. But, in a way, I'm glad I have managed to haunt you as well as Michael. He's taken to invoking my signature and you've felt the need to speculate on my anatomy. I must be doing something right. Thanks, --John --part1_6b.223747fc.2d57b75a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You lost me, Scottie.

But, in a way, I'm glad I have managed to haunt you as well as Michael.

He's taken to invoking my signature and you've felt the need to speculat= e on my anatomy.

I must be doing something right.

Thanks,

--John

--part1_6b.223747fc.2d57b75a_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 17:09:21 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i18M9L406210 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:09:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:01:52 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden's Credibility To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <1423198.1076277712372.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, James T, your comment on Holden's uncertainty left me interested in how you and everyone else feels about Holden's credibility as a narrator. He states himself that he's 'the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life'. I'm curious as to whether he can be trusted because he admits he's a liar and because he is still young and naive enough to not understand his world around him well enough to accurately report it to us. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 20:54:34 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i191sYO14153 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:54:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:57:23 -0600 From: "James Tarleton" To: Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Good question Mike. "I'm the most teriffic liar..." Is Holden lying when he says this? If I were a high school AP english teacher, the exam would be a single true or false question: Holden Caulfield is a liar. T or F. (Circle one.) Then I'd say, "You have forty minutes." and just sit behind the desk, expressionless, with my hands folded. >>> nowekm1@southernct.edu 02/08/04 4:01 PM >>> Hello Everyone, James T, your comment on Holden's uncertainty left me interested in how you and everyone else feels about Holden's credibility as a narrator. He states himself that he's 'the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life'. I'm curious as to whether he can be trusted because he admits he's a liar and because he is still young and naive enough to not understand his world around him well enough to accurately report it to us. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 8 21:48:50 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i192mnd16272 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:48:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:38:31 -0500 Message-Id: <20040209023831.22109@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Sun, Feb 8, 2004, tarlejh@auburn.edu said: >If I were a high school AP english teacher, the exam would be a single >true or false question: > >Holden Caulfield is a liar. T or F. (Circle one.) > >Then I'd say, "You have forty minutes." and just sit behind the desk, >expressionless, with my hands folded. Great point, James. (Is it "James" or is it "Jim" or is it something else? I never know how to address someone the first time!) It leads me to my two favorite test situations, one from Gertrude Stein and the other from Woody Allen. Gertrude, taking an exam at Johns Hopkins for her professor, William James, wrote something like this: As it is a nice day outside, I am not feeling like an exam today. To which Professor James awarded an "A." Woody, who said he was in a course at NYU in Existentialism. He said that he couldn't answer any of the questions, so he handed in a blank test: The teacher gave me an "A" ... he said. (He also said that in a philosophy class, he plagiarized: he looked within the soul of the boy sitting next to him.) I wish I had my copy of Stein's book at hand, because the exact quote is priceless, and I scarcely do it justice. Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 07:07:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19C72Z09468 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:07:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001601c3eee1$39360640$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <20040209023831.22109@mail.panix.com> Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:49:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org How interesting, Tim (or should I say Timothy?) We see here two examples of the so called 'child-centred' teaching where the little buggers are encouraged to consider their views & opinions as valid as those of their masters. Arising in America, it has done unimaginable damage to the standards of British & Irish education. The thought of the general approval which I'm sure will echo your own colours with adds an unwonted depression to this Monday morning. In the meanwhile, 1) - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 07:07:02 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19C72S09469 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:07:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002001c3eee1$f8893620$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: Subject: continuation Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:54:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Sorry. Trigger-happy SEND. In the meanwhile, 1) Describe in the air, with the point of your toe, clockwise circles, continuing to do so, 2) Draw, with your finger, an imaginary figure 6. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 07:27:25 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19CRPe10081 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:27:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 07:26:25 -0500 Message-Id: <20040209122625.21426@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <002001c3eee1$f8893620$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> References: <002001c3eee1$f8893620$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 9, 2004, rbowman@indigo.ie said: > How interesting, Tim (or should I say Timothy?) > > We see here two examples of the so called 'child-centred' teaching > where the little buggers are encouraged to consider their views & > opinions as valid as those of their masters. Arising in America, it has > done unimaginable damage to the standards of British & Irish education. > The thought of the general approval which I'm sure will echo your own > colours with adds an unwonted depression to this Monday morning. Ah, Scottie, how deliberately you misread me. Are you not the same man who pleads the importance of a fully functional sense of humor? Did you miss the absurdity of Stein's "I do not feel like an exam today"? I was offering two anecdotes that seem to me to be hilarious, not an indictment of teaching philosophies. One is patently a joke (Woody Allen), and the other is a measure of the kind of thinking that gave us "a rose is a rose is a rose" and The Biography of Alice B. Toklas. No broader meaning; no judgment of education. As you possibly know, I was raised in a strict Catholic house, and went to Catholic schools all my life, until college. I was never exposed to "child-centered" teaching. The only "centering" on any "child" I saw was the ruler cracked across the knuckles, the chalk thrown across the classroom. No permissiveness there. No lowering of standards. Finally, as someone who has occasionally been at the front of the classroom, I am hardly one to defend the notion that students' opinions are as valid as their teachers' views. If I believed such a thing, I would have quit on the first day of the first class. As for your steps one and two, I'm sure there must be something typically cutting or sneering in there, but damned if I know what it suggests. I really don't know what to make of your comments. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 09:58:19 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19EwJ416217 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:58:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000e01c3ef16$fc975140$5ca57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <002001c3eee1$f8893620$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040209122625.21426@mail.panix.com> Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:13:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... I really don't know what to make of your comments ...' Try them. Tell us how you got on. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXMp26664 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402091538.i19FcB2c006896@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Holden's Credibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:38:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Chewing gum and walking, the athletic types bite their tongues frequently and the pale sallow chested types pop and snap it like a pro before bumping their heads on the sidewalk. Daniel As for your steps one and two, I'm sure there must be something typically cutting or sneering in there, but damned if I know what it suggests. I really don't know what to make of your comments. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:23 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXNn26675 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:23 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 08:10:17 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 08:10:17 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4027B0D5.ADC2.1754.000] Content-Identifier: 00DDC4027B0E9006 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4027B0D5.ADC2.1754.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 09 Feb 2004 08:10:17 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, nowekm1@southernct.edu Subject: Re: Antolini-Pervert or Concerned Teacher (or both)? Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org my impression is that he was drunk and recalling himself as a young poor boy lost in the world. he was patting his own head and consoling himself. >>> nowekm1@southernct.edu 02/07/04 05:55PM >>> Hi everyone, Thank you for your helpful responses. I am interested in hearing how you all feel about whether Antolini really tried to get too 'friendly' with Holden or if Holden was just overreacting. How would you compare Antolini to Spencer? Did he have a 'Jacko'-style crush on Holden or was his concern for Holden pure and genuine? Also (before the head petting incident), do you think he was getting through to Holden better than Spencer, or like Esme suggested, did he too lack humility? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:21 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXLc26647 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 10:06:18 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Message-ID: <20040209150618.GA20449@panix.com> References: <002001c3eee1$f8893620$45a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040209122625.21426@mail.panix.com> <000e01c3ef16$fc975140$5ca57dc2@j8l6n9> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000e01c3ef16$fc975140$5ca57dc2@j8l6n9> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 02:13:20PM -0000, Scottie Bowman wrote: > '... I really don't know what to make of your comments ...' > > Try them. Tell us how you got on. Ah, right, old sport. I'll get right on it. Sure thing, don't you know. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:22 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXMp26663 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402091524.i19FOAXq002950@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: my son, my son... Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:24:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Congratulations! Penn? Daniel This cracked me up so I had to share it. I'd sent an e-mail to my oldest son with a link to web photo albums of my new baby boy (born Jan. 2, Caleb Penn Lorraine Rovira), Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:23 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXNZ26674 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:23 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 08:14:09 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 08:14:09 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4027B1C5.ADC2.181C.000] Content-Identifier: 013F44027B1D1003 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4027B1C5.ADC2.181C.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 09 Feb 2004 08:14:09 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, Omlor@aol.com Subject: Re: Holden vs. Spencer Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org haunt? no, sir john. pure homage. i drive a blue 1990 subaru loyale. >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/08/04 12:04PM >>> You lost me, Scottie. But, in a way, I'm glad I have managed to haunt you as well as Michael. He's taken to invoking my signature and you've felt the need to speculate on my anatomy. I must be doing something right. Thanks, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:24 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXO226682 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040209173059.2245.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040209023831.22109@mail.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > I wish I had my copy of Stein's book at hand, > because the exact quote is > priceless, and I scarcely do it justice. > >From "The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas": "It was a very lovely spring day, Gertrude Stein had been going to the opera every night and going also to the opera in the afternoon and had been otherwise engrossed and it was the period of the final examinations, and there was the examination in William James' course. She sat down with the examination paper before her and she just could not. Dear Professor James, she wrote at the top of her paper. I am so sorry but really I do not feel a bit like an examination paper in philosophy today, and left. The next day she had a postal card from William James saying, Dear Miss Stein, I understand perfectly how you feel I often feel like that myself. And underneath it he gave her work the highest mark in his course." --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:33:23 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IXNW26681 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:33:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4027BEBF.2030601@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:09:19 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I don't think the question is being phrased or understood quite right. It's not an either/or type of thing. It's a matter of asking what he can be trusted to report, and what he can't -- or even, what about particular incidents he can be trusted to report, and what are his limitations in observation, understanding, etc. The Mr. Antolini incident is a case in point. All he saw was an adult male stroking his hair. Holden, being who he is, can only understand that as a homosexual advance. I think we can trust Holden to accurately report that his hair was being stroked, but can we trust his interpretation of Antolini's act? Not necessarily. The important thing here is our understanding of Holden and his limitations. Jim James Tarleton wrote: >Good question Mike. "I'm the most teriffic liar..." Is Holden lying >when he says this? > >If I were a high school AP english teacher, the exam would be a single >true or false question: > >Holden Caulfield is a liar. T or F. (Circle one.) > >Then I'd say, "You have forty minutes." and just sit behind the desk, >expressionless, with my hands folded. > > > >>>>nowekm1@southernct.edu 02/08/04 4:01 PM >>> >>>> >>>> >Hello Everyone, >James T, your comment on Holden's uncertainty left me interested in how >you and everyone else feels about Holden's credibility as a narrator. >He states himself that he's 'the most terrific liar you ever saw in >your life'. I'm curious as to whether he can be trusted because he >admits he's a liar and because he is still young and naive enough to >not understand his world around him well enough to accurately report it >to us. Any thoughts? >-Mike N > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:46:41 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19Ikfw27456 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:46:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402091839.i19IdlV2000895@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Holden vs. Spencer Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:39:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Quit bragging Mike, no one wants to know about your intimate anatomy. Daniel haunt? no, sir john. pure homage. i drive a blue 1990 subaru loyale. >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/08/04 12:04PM >>> You lost me, Scottie. But, in a way, I'm glad I have managed to haunt you as well as Michael. He's taken to invoking my signature and you've felt the need to speculate on my anatomy. I must be doing something right. Thanks, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:46:42 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19Ikgq27461 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:46:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4027D50A.6050800@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:44:26 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: my son, my son... References: <200402091524.i19FOAXq002950@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402091524.i19FOAXq002950@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yeah...born in PA, so Penn. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Congratulations! Penn? >Daniel > > > >This cracked me up so I had to share it. > >I'd sent an e-mail to my oldest son with a link to web photo albums of my >new baby boy (born Jan. 2, Caleb Penn Lorraine Rovira), >Jim >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 13:47:30 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i19IlU927545 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:47:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:46:08 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden's Credibility Message-ID: <20040209184607.GA18522@panix.com> References: <20040209023831.22109@mail.panix.com> <20040209173059.2245.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040209173059.2245.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:30:59AM -0800, City Cabin wrote: > James' course. She sat down with the examination > paper before her and she just could not. Dear > Professor James, she wrote at the top of her paper. I > am so sorry but really I do not feel a bit like an > examination paper in philosophy today, and left. > > The next day she had a postal card from William James > saying, Dear Miss Stein, I understand perfectly how > you feel I often feel like that myself. And > underneath it he gave her work the highest mark in his > course." That's it! Thanks, Bruce! It still cracks me up to read it. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 19:18:59 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A0Ixg14484 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:18:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402092008.i19K8UbH021785@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: FW: Holden vs. Spencer Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:08:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I drive an '87 Ford Festiva but my wife is pressuring me to sell it, I have a hard time keeping women's eyes above my belt line. Daniel i used to drive a 1989 chevrolet cavalier. i'm hoping by 2015 to get a 1991 caprice classic. homage? i meant, fromage. -mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 19:18:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A0IwU14473 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:18:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402091952.i19Jqq9W017853@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: my son, my son... Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:52:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I guess it could have been Jerse'. Daniel Yeah...born in PA, so Penn. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 19:18:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A0Iwj14467 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:18:58 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 10:54:58 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 09 Feb 2004 10:54:58 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4027D77A.ADC2.05F9.000] Content-Identifier: 005554027D782002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4027D77A.ADC2.05F9.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 09 Feb 2004 10:54:58 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Holden vs. Spencer Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org i used to drive a 1989 chevrolet cavalier. i'm hoping by 2015 to get a 1991 caprice classic. homage? i meant, fromage. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/09/04 10:50AM >>> Quit bragging Mike, no one wants to know about your intimate anatomy. Daniel haunt? no, sir john. pure homage. i drive a blue 1990 subaru loyale. >>> Omlor@aol.com 02/08/04 12:04PM >>> You lost me, Scottie. But, in a way, I'm glad I have managed to haunt you as well as Michael. He's taken to invoking my signature and you've felt the need to speculate on my anatomy. I must be doing something right. Thanks, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 19:18:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A0Iw214479 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:18:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402092006.i19K6uZP021476@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Holden's Credibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:06:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org What a lie, so Catcher is a con appeal for attention? Liar's have a way of telling you the truth if you listen long enough. It does not matter whether Antolini is coming onto him or not it is the uncertainty that matters as I think Jim says. In the misunderstanding someone is wronged, but not certain who or how. That IS Catcher's theme, gosh dang it. Daniel Hello Everyone, James T, your comment on Holden's uncertainty left me interested in how you and everyone else feels about Holden's credibility as a narrator. He states himself that he's 'the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life'. I'm curious as to whether he can be trusted because he admits he's a liar and because he is still young and naive enough to not understand his world around him well enough to accurately report it to us. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 22:27:57 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A3Rva22480 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:27:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 22:18:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden's Lying To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <888969.1076383125849.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the underlying issues behind Holden's lying, specifically, on the train ride with Mrs. Morrow. Personally, I feel that Holden is being honest with the reader, but he does admit lying to some of the other characters. I am curious as to what you all think are his motivations for lying. Is it his way of playing a role so that he can hide who he really is from others? Or is it because such a big part of adolescence is about testing limitations and seeing what one can and can't get away with? Or are there other issues here that I'm not considering? Thanks. -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 22:41:45 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A3fj123023 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Holden's Lying Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:40:24 -0500 Message-Id: <20040210034024.17172@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <888969.1076383125849.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> References: <888969.1076383125849.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 9, 2004, nowekm1@southernct.edu said: >I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the underlying issues >behind Holden's lying, specifically, on the train ride with Mrs. >Morrow. Personally, I feel that Holden is being honest with the reader, >but he does admit lying to some of the other characters. I am curious >as to what you all think are his motivations for lying. Is it his way >of playing a role so that he can hide who he really is from others? Or >is it because such a big part of adolescence is about testing >limitations and seeing what one can and can't get away with? Or are >there other issues here that I'm not considering? Thanks. I think Holden is the classic unreliable narrator, viz. Huck Finn. They are a lot alike, in that you don't know what is honest, what is filtered through naive eyes, and what is deliberately faked. Any book that starts out, "If you really want to hear about it," is bound to engender suspicion in readers about what is true and what is not. Especially when that narrator tells us time and again how great a liar he is. Nonetheless, in the straight narrative, I always feel that Holden is pretty honest -- take the scene where he dances with the three women in the Lavender Room: I really think he is playing straight. Same with Sally Hayes and the (Ivy League?) guy at intermission who thinks the Lunts are absolute angels and who has to step back to give himself room when speaking, and steps on someone's foot. I believe that he leaves the bar drunk and develops frozen hair after dunking his head in the sink. I even believe the stories about the cabdrivers like Horwitz. On the other hand, I believe that in some details, he deliberately exaggerates, as in Commander Blop's handshake, and the bit about the phony at the theater breaking about a million bones in the foot he steps on. It's hard to say what seems real and what seems exaggerated, but at heart I think he's basically honest. It's when he gets anecdotal and in a state of reminiscence that I think we see him being something of a teller of tall tales. Hmmm, I think this answer has zigged and zagged from right to left and back again. Have I been confusing enough?? Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 22:41:44 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A3fia23012 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:41:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40285AF0.AEA4BF8D@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:15:44 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: my son, my son... References: <200402091952.i19Jqq9W017853@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha. Well, there's William Penn, too...so it's a person's name. Come to think of it, he was born in NJ, actually. Just concei-ed in PA... Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > I guess it could have been Jerse'. > Daniel > > Yeah...born in PA, so Penn. > > Jim > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 9 22:41:45 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1A3fjf23018 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 2004 22:41:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40285B3C.508B1F83@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:17:01 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: FW: Holden vs. Spencer References: <200402092008.i19K8UbH021785@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I have both you guys beat...I drive a 1983 BMW.... Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > I drive an '87 Ford Festiva but my wife is pressuring me to sell it, I have > a hard time keeping women's eyes above my belt line. > Daniel > > i used to drive a 1989 chevrolet cavalier. > > i'm hoping by 2015 to get a 1991 caprice classic. > > homage? i meant, fromage. > > -mike > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 10 07:07:29 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1AC7T816208 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:07:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:24:11 -0600 From: "James Tarleton" To: Subject: Re: Holden's Lying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Holden's motivations for lying are definitely interesting, especially in the part of the book you mention. Have you ever lied to someone for no reason, just on an impulse, where you didn't even gain anything by lying? - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 10 07:13:10 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1ACDAN16407 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:13:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:11:36 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden's Lying Message-ID: <20040210121135.GA11956@panix.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:24:11PM -0600, James Tarleton wrote: > Holden's motivations for lying are definitely interesting, especially in > the part of the book you mention. Have you ever lied to someone for no > reason, just on an impulse, where you didn't even gain anything by > lying? Absolutely, especially when there is nothing to gain. I don't like being bothered like strangers (such as on an airplane), and am prone to telling tall tales in such circumstances. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 10 16:05:08 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1AL58O12242 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:05:08 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 10 Feb 2004 08:14:42 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 10 Feb 2004 08:14:42 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4029036D.ADC2.3BB2.000] Content-Identifier: 01A0A40290372001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4029036D.ADC2.3BB2.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 10 Feb 2004 08:14:42 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, nowekm1@southernct.edu Subject: Re: Holden's Lying Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org i think he's lying the whole time. the whole story, from beginning to end. there is no sally, no d.b., no phoebe, no mr. antolini. he's not even in school. his name's not even holden. his name is actually jerome, and he's a writer writing a fiction story to fool you into thinking he's the one that's to do what's never been done, that's to do what's never been won, meantime life outside went on all around him. or something like that. been listening to "bringing it all back home" for the past two days. turning points indeed! half acoustic half electric! we want bobby! we want bobby! -mike >>> nowekm1@southernct.edu 02/09/04 07:29PM >>> Hello Everyone, I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the underlying issues behind Holden's lying, specifically, on the train ride with Mrs. Morrow. Personally, I feel that Holden is being honest with the reader, but he does admit lying to some of the other characters. I am curious as to what you all think are his motivations for lying. Is it his way of playing a role so that he can hide who he really is from others? Or is it because such a big part of adolescence is about testing limitations and seeing what one can and can't get away with? Or are there other issues here that I'm not considering? Thanks. -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 11 06:26:07 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1BBQ7t02484 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 06:26:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000c01c3f089$e481bf40$78a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: Subject: Maeve Brennan Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:28:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org There seems to be considerable familiarity among bananafish with the personalities & events of The New Yorker's golden age. I'm curious about a writer called Maeve Brennan who died ten years ago & whose work is presently - if belatedly - being celebrated in her native land. Last night, when it was already half way over, I stumbled on a biographical programme on Irish television about her - a programme in which a number of old New Yorker hacks reminisced glowingly about Maeve & her retinue of admirers from the early 50s: Shawn, Maxwell, Liebling, Perlman, as well as her husband, St Clair McKelway (No mention of JD, actually.) There was plenty about the unwitty malignancy of the Algonquin table .... the more or less universal alcoholism & near psychotic eccentricity .... Shawn whose delight in a piece of writing was signalled by pathological blushing .... McKelway whom she had to divorce when his drinking had finally drained all their money .... her own last days as a broken down bag lady moving from one cheap hotel room to the next. Maeve was by all accounts - & her photographs confirm this - an absolute stunner, petite, red-haired & with an exacting personality that charmed & terrified with equal power. Her father, Robert, was a hero of the Sinn Fein of 1916-21 & in 1934 went to the US as a leader of some Irish government delegation or other, taking his brilliant 17 year old daughter with him. She somehow found her way onto the staff of The New Yorker & became one of its most formidable ornaments through the 50s & early 60s, writing book reviews, short stories, & bits for Talk of the Town. One novel, deriving from her childhood in Wexford so antagonised her family that she was never afterwards accepted by them. (One cousin, by the way, who did remember with gratitude her courteous attention to his 14 year old self was Roddy 'The Commitments' Doyle.) I don't know that I'd have felt as crazy about her as all of these chaps (too rebarbative & too Irish) but my curiosity was aroused & I wonder if any of you NY archivists have anything to add? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 11 22:46:01 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1C3k1w24163 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:46:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:21:44 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Faith Cavendish To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <340278.1076556104417.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, I'm trying to figure out what Holden's phone call to Faith Cavendish might show us about him and adolescence in general. It's obvious that Holden is uncomfortable with his sexuality as many adolescents are. What I don't understand is why he told her he would only be available that night. If she had agreed to let him come over would he have gone through with it? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 07:28:35 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1CCSZ716904 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:28:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <402B1B9E.44A5022B@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:22:23 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish References: <340278.1076556104417.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Why does the phone call have to show us anything about "adolescence in general"? Why can't it just show us something about Holden? And, why does it have to "show" anything? Why can't it just be something he did because he'd been drinking? What was the shape and color of the phone, by the way? Was he calling from a phone booth? If so, the phone was probably black. Where was the phone booth? What does that tell us about the phone, and phones in general? And why did he call a girl named "Faith"? And what about her last name, "Cavendish"? "Cave" "n" "dish." Could this be a reference to her sexuality and attractiveness? Is this why he called her? Because he had "faith" she'd put out for him? Jim Michael Allen Nowek wrote: > Hello Everyone, > I'm trying to figure out what Holden's phone call to Faith Cavendish > might show us about him and adolescence in general. It's obvious that > Holden is uncomfortable with his sexuality as many adolescents are. > What I don't understand is why he told her he would only be available > that night. If she had agreed to let him come over would he have gone > through with it? > -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:47 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D0alI18675 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:36:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:56:39 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <8368731.1076608599119.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Mr. Rovira, Perhaps I should have explained myself a little more before I began posting all of these questions. Currently, I am an undergad who is student teaching in an urban alternative school for troubled teens. These are kids who are poor and some of them have already been behind bars. I'm studying Salinger's fiction to find themes universal to all adolescents to try and figure out how best to teach his texts to these students and all 21st century adolescents for that matter. You may be right. Perhaps there is nothing more to the Faith Cavendish episode, but if I leave any stones unturned then I don't feel I would be doing a very thorough job. But thank you for responding anyway. -Mike N James Rovira wrote: >Why does the phone call have to show us anything about "adolescence in >general"? Why can't it just show us something about Holden? And, why >does it have to "show" anything? Why can't it just be something he did >because he'd been drinking? > >What was the shape and color of the phone, by the way? Was he calling >from a phone booth? If so, the phone was probably black. Where was the >phone booth? What does that tell us about the phone, and phones in >general? And why did he call a girl named "Faith"? And what about her >last name, "Cavendish"? "Cave" "n" "dish." Could this be a reference to >her sexuality and attractiveness? Is this why he called her? Because he >had "faith" she'd put out for him? > >Jim > >Michael Allen Nowek wrote: > >> Hello Everyone, >> I'm trying to figure out what Holden's phone call to Faith Cavendish >> might show us about him and adolescence in general. It's obvious that >> Holden is uncomfortable with his sexuality as many adolescents are. >> What I don't understand is why he told her he would only be available >> that night. If she had agreed to let him come over would he have gone >> through with it? >> -Mike N > >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:46 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D0akX18669 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:36:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040212172022.28086.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:20:22 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Donald Barr To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org *If* we are to believe that unpatriotic, Bush-bashing, pinko paper, The New York Times, Donald Barr has died. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/10/nyregion/10BARR.html Barr was one of Salinger's earliest critics. His 1957 appreciative essay, "Saints, Pilgrims, and Artists," was one of the first essays about Salinger's work (apart from book reviews). However, by 1963, his major essay, "Ah Buddy: Salinger," was an all-out attack on Salinger and his work. In 1986, he wrote an article for the aforementioned paper, "Should Holden Caulfield Read These Books?" (which I haven't read). Salinger (almost Bech-like) has outlived another of his critics. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:48 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D0amR18687 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:36:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040212222308.7373.qmail@web60905.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:23:08 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: The Dead Critics Society To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Unlike Barr, the late Alfred Kazin, one of the deans of American criticism, started out as a hostile critic of Salinger's work. His damning 1961 review of "Franny and Zooey"--"J.D. Salinger: 'Everybody's Favorite'"--has been reprinted in any number of volumes of Salinger criticism. It recently was reborn--rebound--in yet another Harold Bloom series, this one called "Biocritiques," in 2002. Anyway, in this essay Kazin was the first to speak aloud the "c" word: "I am sorry to have to use the word 'cute' in respect to Salinger, but there is absolutely no other word that for me so accurately typifies the self-conscious charm and prankishness of his own writing and his extraordinary cherishing of his favorite Glass characters." Kazin also rounds on Salinger's audience: "Salinger's vast public, I am convinced, is based not merely on the vast number of young people who recognize their emotional problems in his fiction and their frustrated rebellions in the sophisticated language he manipulates so skillfully. It is based perhaps even more on the vast numbers who have been released by our society to think of themselves as endlessly sensitive, spiritually alone, gifted, and whose suffering lies in the narrowing of their consciousness to themselves, in the withdrawal of their curiosity from a society which they think they understand all too well...." And he ends the review by worrying that Salinger has lost "the deepest possibilities of literary art." I was somewhat floored--but pleased--to run into a few pages by Kazin about Salinger's Glass stories, written 12 years later, in his book, "Bright Book of Life." Kazin ends his discussion with the following paragraph: "Salinger is an oddity, an obsessive, who commands respect because certain of his characters are so important to him. The Glass stories are not another family chronicle; Salinger's emotions are too selective and even arbitrary. But they do display, to the point of anguish, a sense that *some* people are more important than anything else in the world. So much regard for individual personality (incestuous as the particular case may be) makes Salinger's Holy Family stand out from the great mass of unvalued, unregarded and undescribed individuals in contemporary fiction. *His* people will last." --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:47 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D0alT18681 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:36:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040212213542.48207.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <402B1B9E.44A5022B@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Dear James Rovira, I thought you were a better teacher than this post would show...but I liked the little dance with her name, Esmé4 --- James Rovira wrote: > Why does the phone call have to show us anything > about "adolescence in > general"? Why can't it just show us something about > Holden? And, why > does it have to "show" anything? Why can't it just > be something he did > because he'd been drinking? > > What was the shape and color of the phone, by the > way? Was he calling > from a phone booth? If so, the phone was probably > black. Where was the > phone booth? What does that tell us about the > phone, and phones in > general? And why did he call a girl named "Faith"? > And what about her > last name, "Cavendish"? "Cave" "n" "dish." Could > this be a reference to > her sexuality and attractiveness? Is this why he > called her? Because he > had "faith" she'd put out for him? > > Jim > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:48 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D0am118692 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:36:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001401c3f1bd$4dd62a60$51a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <340278.1076556104417.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> <402B1B9E.44A5022B@drew.edu> Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:08:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Jim's mockery of The Close Reader gives me alarming feelings of unreality. He can't be changing sides, can he? I was reminded, for all the world, of that bit in The Exorcist when the little girl starts growling like an old man. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 20:57:42 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D1vgp21937 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040213012345.90836.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:23:45 -0800 (PST) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: Re: Donald Barr To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040212172022.28086.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- City Cabin wrote: > *If* we are to believe that unpatriotic, Bush-bashing, > pinko paper, The New York Times, Okay. That's now officially the funniest thing I've read all day. Thank god for The New York Times. From me and the rest of the pinkos. Best, Cecilia. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 12 20:57:42 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1D1vgR21942 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:57:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040213014725.6908.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:47:25 -0800 (PST) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <340278.1076556104417.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Michael Allen Nowek wrote: > If she had agreed to let him come over would he have gone > through with it? Absolutely not. He would have found some reason not to go there in the end. Or, he would have gone over and found something wrong with her. This girl was nowhere near what Holden wanted. And, despite all of Jim's kidding about names, I think you can look at her name and draw a few conclusions about what she represents. Faith Cavendish has precisely the sort of WASP-y old moneyed name that Holden would want to avoid. Didn't the Cavendishes come over on the Mayflower? This sort would seem to Holden to be the phoniest of the phonies, I would think. In terms of what you can express to your kids, especially to those in urban schools, you're not going to have an easy time of it. They won't believe that Holden would pass this up. Today, I had a discussion with my students here in Brooklyn about a poem where the man in a poem wasn't interested in sex and nearly everyone in the class immediately called him a freak. "What boy would turn down sex, Miss?" they asked me. I said I didn't know. None that I'd ever met, certainly. What may make more sense to them is to compare sex to something unknown. Something that isn't sex but would afford them both pleasure and discomfort. Something that would create fear but simultaneously promise pleasure. I don't know. Battle rapping? Why would it be so easy to cave when the rewards could be great? You've got to emphasize the social aspect of failure, methinks. Best, Cecilia. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 13 07:50:39 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1DCods15642 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:50:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01c3f215$1e23bf00$3ca57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <20040213014725.6908.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:37:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... I thought you were a better teacher than this post would show...' The gentle reproof that turneth away wrath. It's some thought. All these inspirational teachers, the works of Jerome Salinger in one hand, those of Maureen Dowd in the other, gently leading the young of America into the paths of righteousness. As the man says, you'd want a heart of stone not to burst out laughing. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 13 07:50:39 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1DCodN15641 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:50:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:05:39 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish Message-ID: <20040213040539.GB12587@panix.com> References: <340278.1076556104417.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> <20040213014725.6908.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040213014725.6908.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 05:47:25PM -0800, Cecilia Baader wrote: > > If she had agreed to let him come over would he have gone > > through with it? > > Absolutely not. He would have found some reason not to go there in the > end. Or, he would have gone over and found something wrong with her. Yes, I can definitely see this happening. He'd imagine what the landlord would think, what the salesman who sold her a skirt, all those Holdenish digressions. > Didn't the Cavendishes come over on the Mayflower? Not old Faith, though. I would guess this Cavendish came from the heart of Brooklyn, by the way she talked. > In terms of what you can express to your kids, especially to those in > urban schools, you're not going to have an easy time of it. They won't > believe that Holden would pass this up. Today, I had a discussion with my > students here in Brooklyn about a poem where the man in a poem wasn't > interested in sex and nearly everyone in the class immediately called him > a freak. "What boy would turn down sex, Miss?" they asked me. What poem? This is a great story. > I said I didn't know. None that I'd ever met, certainly. And that is even a better story. > What may make more sense to them is to compare sex to something unknown. > Something that isn't sex but would afford them both pleasure and > discomfort. Something that would create fear but simultaneously promise > pleasure. I don't know. Battle rapping? Why would it be so easy to cave > when the rewards could be great? You've got to emphasize the social > aspect of failure, methinks. This is a really good idea to mull over. I really want to give it some thought. I love a challenge. Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 13 07:50:38 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1DCoc815631 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:50:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:54:27 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Donald Barr Message-ID: <20040213035427.GA12587@panix.com> References: <20040212172022.28086.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> <20040213012345.90836.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040213012345.90836.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 05:23:45PM -0800, Cecilia Baader wrote: > Thank god for The New York Times. From me and the rest of the pinkos. You forgot to mention "subversive" ... surely, among friends, we can admit to that, thereby insuring a fresh round of frothing at the mouth. --tim (who gets his news from a wide range of news sources) - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 13 16:05:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1DL5IN04632 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:05:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <402CE243.1060208@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:42:11 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Faith Cavendish References: <20040212213542.48207.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040212213542.48207.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Esme -- heh...wasn't trying to teach with the post. I appreciate your response, Mike -- anything you can do to get your students interested is worthwhile. You probably did say what you were doing in an earlier post and I'd forgotten. I'd suggest getting to know Holden, individually and personally, in as much detail and specificity as you can, and let your students make their own connections. That being said, I think Cecilia's answer to your question is the best one -- the inferences she draws about Faith's name are probably dead on, so perhaps it's best to assume that Holden called her, in particular, because he knew ahead of time she wouldn't come. Scottie -- Ha. Nothing at all against close readings, just about trying to infer "universals" about adolescence from CITR. It's perfectly fair to ask a specific group of adolescents what -they- feel they have in common with Holden, but I don't think that holds for all or most adolescents alive everywhere in the world at all times. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 13 16:05:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1DL5II04637 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:05:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040213190813.54068.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:08:13 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Donald Barr To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040213012345.90836.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Cecilia Baader wrote: > > Okay. That's now officially the funniest thing I've > read all day. > I'm gratified to see that one of the side effects of my meds is not a loss of sense of humor. > Thank god for The New York Times. Yes. And for the Web, too. Here, out West, at least, a print subscription to the Times is prohibitive. Unless, of course, one is a card-carrying member of the Limousine Liberal Union. --Bruce (who had a 1983 Honda Accord for 20 years; and now a 2003 Toyota Camry, which he expects to see him to the grave) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 17 13:51:39 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1HIpd524160 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:51:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:45:17 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: OFF-TOPIC news Message-ID: <20040217184517.GB18459@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Banana-Pescadores: Hi, all. This is about as off-topic as one can get, but I wanted to make a modest Public Safety Announcement. The list continues to run on manual (meaning I have to approve each post), but that's OK with me. However, on the other hand: if you use Windows, please please please please make sure that you run "Windows Update" to catch the most recent vulnerabilities announced my Microsoft last week. If you don't believe me 8-), check it for yourself: http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3313531 In addition, please make sure your anti-virus definitions are current; for instance, Symantec issued an update this morning. Other AV software is also being updated now for the latest handful of worms and viruses. My hope is that if our subscribers are all protected, the whole list will benefit in the long run. Back to fighting the good fight.... --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 17 17:40:00 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1HMe0U03200 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:40:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4032664A.9060700@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:06:50 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC news References: <20040217184517.GB18459@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040217184517.GB18459@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Good announcement. That's especially true if you run Windows XP, since there are specific vulnerabilities with that operating system (at least according to my campus tech people). Go to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com if you don't have a Windows Update link in your start menu. Lotsa good stuff to download. Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: >Banana-Pescadores: > >Hi, all. This is about as off-topic as one can get, but I wanted to >make a modest Public Safety Announcement... > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 17 20:36:14 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1I1aEd09504 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:36:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC news Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:35:46 -0500 Message-Id: <20040218013546.21030@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <4032664A.9060700@drew.edu> References: <4032664A.9060700@drew.edu> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 17, 2004, jrovira@drew.edu said: >Good announcement. That's especially true if you run Windows XP, since >there are specific vulnerabilities with that operating system (at least >according to my campus tech people). > >Go to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com if you don't have a Windows >Update link in your start menu. > >Lotsa good stuff to download. Actually, the major vulnerabilities include everything including and after NT: Win 2000, Win XP, Server 2000. There is even speculation that Win98 might have the add-in services that are vulnerable. (Unfortunately, Microsoft dropped support for Win95, WinME, and, except for special emergencies, for Win98.) As Jim said, the best thing to do is to run Windows Update and see what happens. Even Mac users who use Virtual PC are vulnerable IN THE VIRTUAL PC WINDOW. The Mac is not vulnerable itself; only the emulated PC in the window. This vulnerability is considered to be at least as serious as the Blaster attack last August. So ... when it comes to Windows, patch patch patch. When it comes to your anti-virus software, check every day for updates. If you don't run anti-virus software, get some. Now. Anyone who has specific questions, please send them to me, not to the list. I don't want to befoul the place with Windows talk! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 17 23:13:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1I4D2p15330 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:13:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC news Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:12:35 -0500 Message-Id: <20040218041235.862@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040218013546.21030@mail.panix.com> References: <20040218013546.21030@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 17, 2004, tim@roughdraft.org said: >Actually, the major vulnerabilities include everything including and >after NT: Win 2000, Win XP, Server 2000. > >There is even speculation that Win98 might have the add-in services that >are vulnerable. > >(Unfortunately, Microsoft dropped support for Win95, WinME, and, except >for special emergencies, for Win98.) As an update for Windows 98 victims: Though MS has officially dropped support for Win98, I have heard through the security grapevine that in the next day or two a patch will be available for 98. So, if you are running this version of Windows, please do check the windowsupdate site or use the Start --> Windows Update graphical thingie. Happy hunting. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 18 19:43:57 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1J0hvH01385 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:43:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4033C8F3.90303@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:20:03 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Beating a Dead Horse... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This article by Stanley Fish about "intellectual diversity" on college campuses was pretty interesting. http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i23/23b01301.htm Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 01:11:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1J6BIF13316 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:11:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15226316.1077161363804.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:29:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Luke Smith To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org And this very interesting conclusion from Fish on diversity: "And to make the point again, these are not examples of a good idea taken too far, but of a bad idea taken in the only direction -- a political direction -- it is capable of going. As a genuine academic value, intellectual diversity is a nonstarter. As an imposed imperative, it is a disaster." Insistence on "diversity" is a totally different animal from preventing discrimination based on politics or whatever other factor. How would this conclusion inform opposition to monitoring tenure decisions more closely, to make sure people who disagree with the liberal orthodoxy are not systematically rejected? Any school that takes taxpayer money, it would seem, should be accountable to those taxpayers that the teachers it is hiring are hired based on merit and a variety of specialties (in an Economics dept., for example, specialists in behavior, labor market, IO, development, etc.), and not based on ideology. luke -----Original Message----- From: James Rovira Sent: Feb 18, 2004 3:20 PM To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Beating a Dead Horse... This article by Stanley Fish about "intellectual diversity" on college campuses was pretty interesting. http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i23/23b01301.htm Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 01:11:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1J6BII13310 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:11:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:43:43 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden and Sunny To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <5635700.1077158623305.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, I was just reading the chapters containing the Sunny incident and I was wondering what all of you think is the significance of Holden's 'performance anxiety'. Is it because he is a sensitive person and can't get turned on when there are no intimate feelings involved or is it just because he's a scared kid? Or are there other issues at play here that I'm not considering? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 01:11:19 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1J6BJP13321 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:11:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <32773913.1077162238662.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:43:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Luke Smith To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i1J3i2b07297 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Like a good Southern boy should, I’ve seethed in silence over the social pretenses of deb parties, thank-you notes, and phony stuff like that. But Catcher is not the text which hooked me on JDS, so this was somewhat of a difficult question for me. What do y’all think about this: I used a Nine Stories quote for my “Welcome to our newspaper comp†speech (the quote about the interesting artist from DeDaumier-Smith) this evening, and a fellow editor said he was a Salinger fan and that he’d come to a new appreciation of Catcher in college. “There are a lot of phony people here,†he said, or something like that. It’s true that there’s a lot of phoniness here; we even have pseudo-fraternity things which are premised on it, and it’s somewhat of social survival skill in these parts. But something Jim said about Zooey’s consolation to Franny at the end of F&Z made me think of phoniness as a mediocrity of sorts, so instead of railing against it if only subconsciously, shouldn’t it be acknowledged as something that just is? It seemed apparent to me then the inconsistency with the spirit of what JDS was saying of getting all frustrated about it, but somehow, “deal with it, dude†didn’t seem a satisfactory response either. What do you guys think? luke --- "I studied those demons closely once, and they helped kill of the boy in me" (Conroy's Lords of Discipline) - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 04:30:13 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1J9UDn20270 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:30:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC news Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:29:44 -0500 Message-Id: <20040219092944.23696@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040218041235.862@mail.panix.com> References: <20040218041235.862@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 17, 2004, tim@roughdraft.org said: >Though MS has officially dropped support for Win98, I have heard through >the security grapevine that in the next day or two a patch will be >available for 98. So, if you are running this version of Windows, please >do check the windowsupdate site or use the Start --> Windows Update >graphical thingie. Hi, everyone. Just a fast update. Thanks to Daniel and others for sharing their experiences and observations regarding current worm and virus infections. Some of the most recent are especially nasty and widespread. Affected to one extent or another are Windows systems (NT, 2000, XP, 2003, and possibly 98). We continue to get hit heavily on this mailing list with various virus and worm messages. Fortunately, I work either on a Mac or a Linux system, neither of which is typically targeted for attacks. So, I'm able to squash the bad things and let the list messages go out. I do appreciate everyone's patience on this, because sometimes it can be a couple of hours before I get to release legitimate messages, given that my time is tightly budgeted during the course of the day. Ummm, I pay the bills by playing the role of a Computer Security Professional. The good side is that I am about as up to date as a human can be on the various ongoing attacks. The bad side is that quite often I am tied up, or tied down, by one or another crisis; and these days, crises come several times a day. I took on this job when I found that there were no openings in which someone pays you to read Salinger . On the anti-virus front, most anti-virus companies have issued yet more virus definition files. You should get in the habit of checking at least once a day. (On Wednesday, 18 February 2004, one major AV company actually issued three updates in a single day, which may well be a record!) When in doubt, check it out. And as a last digression, if you are interested in the Internet "weather," look at the web site www.incidents.org, which monitors Internet traffic in real time, and shows you graphs of what is happening, and pie charts on a map of the world, indicating activity on each continent. It's a good opportunity for you to brush up on your geography, at least. Some places that tell you about infections are: www.symantec.com www.f-prot.com www.f-secure.com www.sophos.com * On the Windows side, either use your START menu's "Windows Update" selection or point a browser at windowsupdate.microsoft.com. Be especially diligent about grabbing the patch for ASN.1 -- this is one of the more evil problems to come along lately. And one of the patches even applies to Mac users who are running "Virtual PC" (an emulated Windows environment on the Mac desktop). However, Mac users are not getting infected themselves. If you receive mail that says it is from Microsoft and that purports to contain updates or patches, DO NOT click on the attachment(s). Microsoft absolutely and positively does not mail out updates. If you get one, it is phony, so throw it out and empty the trash. If you are using a Mac or a Unix/Linux/*BSD system, give yourself a round of applause -- for now. Thanks for all the kind words of encouragement that have arrived by mail. I try to answer all messages eventually; if you have something critical, send it with: [URGENT TO TIM] ... at the start of the subject line, including the square brackets. I have a program running that grabs mail like that and pushes it at me with great determination. I hope everyone is doing well, and regret that I cannot participate in any conversation that might be taking place. So sorry ... but at least we are still in business! (Thanks if you have managed to read this far in this message.) Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 07:47:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JCl2J25859 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:47:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000d01c3f6d7$094627a0$5ba57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <4033C8F3.90303@drew.edu> Subject: hands off the universities Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:55:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Those most impressed by the academy are those with the least personal experience of it. The widespread mockery of professors comes not from the 'public' with its naïve idealism about centres of learning & pursuers of truth; but from graduates who can remember all too vividly what the reality was in their own lives. The reality was that flock of autistic inadequates absorbed in personal 'research', uninterested & unable to communicate with their charges, the ones who spent their time attending conferences, 'thinking', travelling the world to hobnob with fellow solipsists, or (as John O reminded us last month) putting in those statutory couple of hours a week eyeing up hopefully (if hopelessly) a bunch of impressionable airheads. Fish writes about 'the pursuit of truth.' You'd think he was Socrates. He's far more likely to be some obsessive fretting endlessly over the precise translation of Plutarch's 54th canto. (Mind you, Socrates got his. He'd have done better sticking to his bricklaying than corrupting the youth of Athens & establishing thereby such a dreadful precedent.) Because that unnatural linkage between research & teaching is, surely, the problem. A gift for one rarely coincides with a gift for the other. There may well be a case for the state supporting institutes of research & learning but they should not be charged with the essentially unrelated job of preparing young people to make their way in the world. Instead of doing a good honest day's work, like any primary or secondary school teacher, the academic has far too much time on his hands. This enables & indeed encourages him - by offering a kind of phoney justification - to think up all sorts of mischief with which to infect his students. Let's get these rascals back into publicly funded monasteries where they can no longer present any danger to the young & where the rest of us can happily ignore their vapourings. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 07:47:02 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JCl2O25865 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:47:02 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <33.4445e1df.2d66094e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:42:54 EST Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_33.4445e1df.2d66094e_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_33.4445e1df.2d66094e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luke, Show me a way to make hiring and tenure decisions "based on merit" that are not also "based on ideology." --John --part1_33.4445e1df.2d66094e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luke,

Show me a way to make hiring and tenure decisions "based on merit" that=20= are not also "based on ideology."

--John
--part1_33.4445e1df.2d66094e_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6C609686 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402191627.i1JGRlld017898@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse...on the farm Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:27:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Stanley and John perched high atop ladders leaning against the side of the barn with a brush and paint can in hand. Pigs wearing human clothes is an amazing sight to behold. Watch it Luke or next thing you know they'll set the dogs on you before the ol' farmers get around to making bacon. Daniel Luke, Show me a way to make hiring and tenure decisions "based on merit" that are not also "based on ideology." --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6CF09692 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040219165256.717.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:52:56 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Holden and Sunny To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <5635700.1077158623305.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Dear Mike, I think Holden is sensitive to how Sunny would feel as a prostitute and that's why he doesn't do it. He's pretty good at being insightful about how all the other characters in the book see things...(or he just needed Viagra :>) Esmé 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ69b09644 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4034C8AE.50809@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:31:10 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: hands off the universities References: <4033C8F3.90303@drew.edu> <000d01c3f6d7$094627a0$5ba57dc2@j8l6n9> In-Reply-To: <000d01c3f6d7$094627a0$5ba57dc2@j8l6n9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Responses below. Scottie Bowman wrote: > Those most impressed by the academy are those > with the least personal experience of it. The widespread > mockery of professors comes not from the 'public' > with its naïve idealism about centres of learning & pursuers > of truth; but from graduates who can remember all too > vividly what the reality was in their own lives. > I'm sorry, Scottie, but this is sheer nonsense :). I say this just on the basis of the sources of these kinds of arguments. It could be said that everyone with a college degree are among those with "personal experience," of course -- but this type of personal experience doesn't necessarily mean you have any knowledge of how professors are selected or tenure decisions made, or even of the actual political orientation of most professors in most fields. > Fish writes about 'the pursuit of truth.' You'd think he was > Socrates. He's far more likely to be some obsessive fretting > endlessly over the precise translation of Plutarch's 54th canto. > (Mind you, Socrates got his. He'd have done better sticking > to his bricklaying than corrupting the youth of Athens & > establishing thereby such a dreadful precedent.) > Fish is a Milton scholar -- has written extensively about literary theory, law, etc. > Because that unnatural linkage between research & teaching > is, surely, the problem. A gift for one rarely coincides with > a gift for the other. > Sadly, yes. But this, as well, varies from institution to institution. Major state universities tend to be more research oriented. Small liberal arts colleges tend to care very, very much about how accessible their teachers are to students, and how effectively they teach. In community colleges, the professors do nothing but teach. The university I'm attending now has passed up one Ivy league student with major publications and the best of references because he absolutely could not communicate effectively. > There may well be a case for the state > supporting institutes of research & learning but they should > not be charged with the essentially unrelated job of preparing > young people to make their way in the world. > That's a very large leap -- it's an assumption that most who know how to research don't know how to teach. That's simply not the case. >Instead of doing a good honest day's work, like any primary > or secondary school teacher, the academic has far too much > time on his hands. This enables & indeed encourages him - > by offering a kind of phoney justification - to think up all sorts > of mischief with which to infect his students. > This is the voice of ignorance. Again, you ignore differences between different types of academic institutions, and between different levels of professors -- once again, those with the strongest opinions are the with the least knowledge. Community college profs in the US (which handle far more students than top research universities) teach 6 courses per semester, in general (at least in the humanities), leaving no time for their own research and work. I was specifically advised not to get a full time job at a community college because I'd never finish my dissertation if I did. Professors at my current university teach three to four courses per semester, serve as academic advisor for probably over 20 grad and undergrad students, serve on a number of university committees, and have to read files for incoming students. They are very busy. Those who aren't usually get the boot. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:11 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6B709668 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE101E4D04@exchange.ursinus.edu> From: "Kozusko, Matthew" To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org '" Subject: RE: hands off the universities Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:52:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie: A series of sound points. And my own assessment, from a student's perspective, is in part exactly as you suggest. Not as a teacher, however, and not without some important points of difference. The problem is, when you go about trying to describe something as heterogenuous as even one person's version of a job, you'll never get it right as long as you're attempting a general account or proposing to have exhausted possibilities, because there are always exceptions. People are too complex to behave only in one way even within the parameters of a part-time job, let alone a career. Even among the subset of the professoriat who are socially and pedagogically inept, there are bound to be instances of inspired teaching, and beyond that subset, there are too many good teachers and charming social personalities in higher education for your (admittedly compelling) stereotype to stand without qualification. As a graduate student, I had dismissed teaching as a cult-of-personality arrangement in which you could get students to learn effectively via sheer force of ethos. But now that I'm at a liberal arts college at least marginally more concerned with teaching than my monstrous alma mater, I'm inclined to insist there's more to it. Even if ethos is still the most important part. Anyway, we are required to publish *and* to teach, and effectively compelled to be personable and sociable, as well. Incidentally, an honest day's work here often involves undoing the honest years of work done by innumerable well-meaning primary school teachers who taught my students to hate writing and thinking. Which generalization I offer in place of yours. -- mkozusko@ursinus.edu - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6CI09684 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE10A18E48@exchange.ursinus.edu> From: "Kozusko, Matthew" To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: Author-thoughts and story-content Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:58:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Seymour's float needs more air "than [he's] willing to admit" in "Bfish." Salinger certainly doesn't work at shutting down the possibilities. -- mkozusko@ursinus.edu Michael notes: > I was wondering what all of you think is the significance of Holden's > 'performance anxiety'. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:10 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6Aa09657 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4034CD8B.3000906@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:51:55 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? References: <32773913.1077162238662.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <32773913.1077162238662.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Pretty good. I think the paradox is legit. -- the values demand that frustration. But I think the end of FZ points in another direction too -- the same values tell us to value people, regardless. It's not just a matter of dealing with it. I think it's a matter of serving what you love the most by serving the phonies, or the "fat ladies." Jim Luke Smith wrote: >Like a good Southern boy should, I’ve seethed in silence over the social pretenses of deb parties, thank-you notes, and phony stuff like that. But Catcher is not the text which hooked me on JDS, so this was somewhat of a difficult question for me. What do y’all think about this: > >I used a Nine Stories quote for my “Welcome to our newspaper comp†speech (the quote about the interesting artist from DeDaumier-Smith) this evening, and a fellow editor said he was a Salinger fan and that he’d come to a new appreciation of Catcher in college. “There are a lot of phony people here,†he said, or something like that. > >It’s true that there’s a lot of phoniness here; we even have pseudo-fraternity things which are premised on it, and it’s somewhat of social survival skill in these parts. But something Jim said about Zooey’s consolation to Franny at the end of F&Z made me think of phoniness as a mediocrity of sorts, so instead of railing against it if only subconsciously, shouldn’t it be acknowledged as something that just is? It seemed apparent to me then the inconsistency with the spirit of what JDS was saying of getting all frustrated about it, but somehow, “deal with it, dude†didn’t seem a satisfactory response either. > >What do you guys think? > >luke > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6CI09689 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040219164733.58369.qmail@web41709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:47:33 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: hands off the universities To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <000d01c3f6d7$094627a0$5ba57dc2@j8l6n9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org - > where the rest of us can happily ignore their > vapourings. > > Scottie B. > Dear Scottie B., If professors are so silly, how did you learn to be a doctor?(Are you really a doctor?)You sound very well educated, anyway. I have to admit just getting my BA seems HUGE but I really do think it is worthwhile because I've met a few very good teachers and they helped me read lots of good books. I showed your email to my slacker friends in the dorm and they TOTALLY agree with you. Esme´ 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:11 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6BU09669 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4034CFC0.6070403@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:01:20 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden and Sunny References: <5635700.1077158623305.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> In-Reply-To: <5635700.1077158623305.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I think he cared about the hooker as a person, rather than just a piece of ass, and that was the source of most of his problems (esp. since she didn't know how to react to that). Jim Michael Allen Nowek wrote: >Hello Everyone, >I was just reading the chapters containing the Sunny incident and I was >wondering what all of you think is the significance of Holden's >'performance anxiety'. Is it because he is a sensitive person and can't >get turned on when there are no intimate feelings involved or is it >just because he's a scared kid? Or are there other issues at play here >that I'm not considering? >-Mike N > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ69o09638 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:09 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:01:07 EST Subject: Re: hands off the universities To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ce.46451cd7.2d660d93_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_ce.46451cd7.2d660d93_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent, If we can get Scottie so lathered up, we must be providing a useful and even necessary service. And I love the phrase, "a good honest day's work." Thanks, dad. --John --part1_ce.46451cd7.2d660d93_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent,

If we can get Scottie so lathered up, we must be providing a useful and=20= even necessary service.

And I love the phrase, "a good honest day's work."

Thanks, dad.

--John
--part1_ce.46451cd7.2d660d93_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 14:06:10 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1JJ6An09650 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:06:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4034CB80.4020207@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:43:12 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <15226316.1077161363804.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <15226316.1077161363804.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Luke -- Since he's talking about "intellectual diversity" in particular, not "diversity" as a general principle, it is exactly identical to "preventing discrimination based on politcs." The idea he's specifically talking about is the idea that profs ought to come from a wide range of political opinions. The fact is, they do. I would say humanities profs tend to be left of center, but how much varies from region to region and from school to school. I would say engineering profs tend to be right of center, as well as people in other sciences. But I don't think people are being very smart about this -- at least not smart enough to look at this issue discipline by discipline. My current university gets over 200-300 CVs for every national search it conducts for a single tenure track opening in the English department. We're in the selection process now. We're looking for an Americanist (20th cent.) with a background in Latino/a literature. We immediately tossed quite a few CVs simply because the applicants didn't really have expertise in these fields. Actual merit evaluation (publications, teaching experience, etc.) began with about 20 apps, which was narrowed down to three, who were invited to come visit, meets with profs and students, teach a demonstration class, etc. Written student evaluation was taken into account in addition to review of the CV and the opinions of other instructors. Ethnic diversity is a real issue at my university, and we're trying to address it by hiring more minority professors. I would say an equally competent hispanic or african-american prof would have the advantage over a caucasian prof in the current climate. So the question is -- at what point do we learn about the politics of the applicant? When does this factor in? We can get an idea, probably, from conversations, but many, many more things are considered much more important. One big question is personality -- can we get along with this person? If the hired prof gets tenure, there's no getting rid of him or her (except for extreme circumstances). So if no one likes him or her...that's a big deal. Can the person teach is another. Does the person care about students and teaching, or resent them as intrusions on research -- that's another. Did he vote Democrat in the last election? I don't think that's even asked or thought about. Only someone ignorant of the process would think that hiring is based on ideology in this situation. Jim Luke Smith wrote: >And this very interesting conclusion from Fish on diversity: >"And to make the point again, these are not examples of a good idea taken too far, but of a bad idea taken in the only direction -- a political direction -- it is capable of going. As a genuine academic value, intellectual diversity is a nonstarter. As an imposed imperative, it is a disaster." > >Insistence on "diversity" is a totally different animal from preventing discrimination based on politics or whatever other factor. How would this conclusion inform opposition to monitoring tenure decisions more closely, to make sure people who disagree with the liberal orthodoxy are not systematically rejected? Any school that takes taxpayer money, it would seem, should be accountable to those taxpayers that the teachers it is hiring are hired based on merit and a variety of specialties (in an Economics dept., for example, specialists in behavior, labor market, IO, development, etc.), and not based on ideology. > >luke > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:43 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33h600434 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402192000.i1JK05w6007852@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse... Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:00:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Jim, you sure know which side your bread is buttered. I guess the fence wasn't comfortable enough this time 'round. Bold, very bold Jim. I am pleasantly surprised. Now we know that maybe, just maybe, there good for more than just making babies in the Rovira estate. Daniel The fact is, they do. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:44 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33it00461 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9645953.1077231123081.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:52:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Luke Smith To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i1JMq8b18160 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org A little bit of Kant in there, then. But was JDS more concerned with, say, happiness or some sort of tranquility - that Franny could stop reciting the prayer, if she served phoniness as long as it is a manifestation of something human, whereas Kant would say it's an imperative luke -----Original Message----- From: James Rovira Sent: Feb 19, 2004 9:51 AM To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? Pretty good. I think the paradox is legit. -- the values demand that frustration. But I think the end of FZ points in another direction too -- the same values tell us to value people, regardless. It's not just a matter of dealing with it. I think it's a matter of serving what you love the most by serving the phonies, or the "fat ladies." Jim Luke Smith wrote: >Like a good Southern boy should, Iâ??ve seethed in silence over the social pretenses of deb parties, thank-you notes, and phony stuff like that. But Catcher is not the text which hooked me on JDS, so this was somewhat of a difficult question for me. What do yâ??all think about this: > >I used a Nine Stories quote for my â??Welcome to our newspaper compâ?? speech (the quote about the interesting artist from DeDaumier-Smith) this evening, and a fellow editor said he was a Salinger fan and that heâ??d come to a new appreciation of Catcher in college. â??There are a lot of phony people here,â?? he said, or something like that. > >Itâ??s true that thereâ??s a lot of phoniness here; we even have pseudo-fraternity things which are premised on it, and itâ??s somewhat of social survival skill in these parts. But something Jim said about Zooeyâ??s consolation to Franny at the end of F&Z made me think of phoniness as a mediocrity of sorts, so instead of railing against it if only subconsciously, shouldnâ??t it be acknowledged as something that just is? It seemed apparent to me then the inconsistency with the spirit of what JDS was saying of getting all frustrated about it, but somehow, â??deal with it, dudeâ?? didnâ??t seem a satisfactory response either. > >What do you guys think? > >luke > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:44 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33i300450 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:44 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <69.418bff12.2d668aac@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:54:52 EST Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse...on the farm To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_69.418bff12.2d668aac_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_69.418bff12.2d668aac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey! How did Matt and Jim get left out of Daniel's little tantrum? By the way, I had several arguments with Stanley Fish in person at more than a couple conferences when I was going to such things. So if we're up there together, we're probably fighting. Don't go to those things much anymore, though. Mostly, I just teach. It's fun. All the best, --John --part1_69.418bff12.2d668aac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey!

How did Matt and Jim get left out of Daniel's little tantrum?  

By the way, I had several arguments with Stanley Fish in person at more=20= than a couple conferences when I was going to such things.  So if we're= up there together, we're probably fighting.

Don't go to those things much anymore, though.  Mostly, I just teac= h.

It's fun.

All the best,

--John

--part1_69.418bff12.2d668aac_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:43 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33h000427 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040219192620.79304.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Edmund Wilson Redux To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "Dorothy [as in Parker] had discovered me as a writer. [...] She showed me an omnibus volume of the American Beat generation and the English Angry Young Men, which she was going to review for "Esquire."--I asked her what she thought of J. D. Salinger: she didn't like "The Catcher in the Rye" but did like his short stories." --1958, from Wilson's "The Fifties" And from a "Conversation with Edmund Wilson" originally published in "The Sunday Times" of London, reprinted in "The New Republic" March 30, 1959: "I really know very little about contemporary writing. I did read one book of Kerouac's: "The Subterraneans." He has traces of talent, I think, but seems rather feeble and decadent. I think that Salinger is very good--he's one of the few I've read. The writing of my own generation seems to have reached Europe recently, and they have the illusion that this is new--actually the writers they like are mostly between 60 and 70." --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:43 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33hw00444 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: hands off the universities bring on the boots Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:04:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "get the boot", a professor fired for his work. Amazing, add it to the list with unicorns, leprechauns, and 5 leaf clovers. Daniel Professors at my current university... They are very busy. Those who aren't usually get the boot. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 22:03:44 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K33iN00460 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:03:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20532629.1077229867927.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:31:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Luke Smith To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
Some scholarship just raises intriguing questions. To go back to the example of an economics dept., which would perhaps suffer from politicization of scholarship as much as any social science, one doesn't have to agree with the policy implications of a paper to recognize that its authors have used sound econometric methods and provoke important questions. There are supposed conservatives out there like Martin Feldstein (worked for Reagan) or supposed liberals like Lawrence Summers (worked for Clinton) who both could be considered on that same basis. The answer, that both do in fact use good methods and raise scholarly questions, is going to be the same for any hiring committee, regardless of the committee's ideological orientiation.
 
(That said, though, I qualify Summers and Feldstein's politics with "supposed," because I'm not sure they're entirely fair characterizations. Feldstein's research on marginal tax rates, for example, may inform conservative policies such as tax cuts, in one particular situation like the high MRTs of the early 1980's, but it depends on political exigencies at the time. The scholarship isn't inherently political; it's designed to offer up something truthful about how people behave and how the labor market responds to certain conditions. Remember that Reagan also got rid of Feldstein later. Also, it's not the politics that are at all important.)
 
Does that hypothetical way satisfy you?
 
 
luke


-----Original Message-----
From: Omlor@aol.com
Sent: Feb 19, 2004 7:42 AM
To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse...

Luke,

Show me a way to make hiring and tenure decisions "based on merit" that are not also "based on ideology."

--John
- * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 23:57:34 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K4vYG06205 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:57:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:05:19 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Antolini=Big Holden To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <3207547.1077249919347.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, I was looking through the Bananafish archives and I found an interesting post that suggested Antolini may be a glimpse of Holden's future. I could difinitely see Holden growing up as the sensitive teacher trying to save teenagers just as little Holden hoped to save children. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 19 23:57:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K4vYh06206 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:57:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15152681.1077250863440.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:21:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Luke Smith To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse...on the farm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Always a delight to hear from you, Daniel. While one hates to be so faithless in the future, there is the final glimpse through the farmhouse window luke -----Original Message----- From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE Sent: Feb 19, 2004 11:27 AM To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse...on the farm Stanley and John perched high atop ladders leaning against the side of the barn with a brush and paint can in hand. Pigs wearing human clothes is an amazing sight to behold. Watch it Luke or next thing you know they'll set the dogs on you before the ol' farmers get around to making bacon. Daniel Luke, Show me a way to make hiring and tenure decisions "based on merit" that are not also "based on ideology." --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 01:29:25 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1K6TPd09187 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:29:25 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <15b.2e322282.2d66fa5b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:51:23 EST Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_15b.2e322282.2d66fa5b_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_15b.2e322282.2d66fa5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Luke, "Important" questions? "Good" methods? "Scholarly" questions? Sounds like ideology (and ideological decisions) creeping into the process to me. BTW, how would you do it for Lit. professors? --John --part1_15b.2e322282.2d66fa5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry Luke,

"Important" questions?  "Good" methods?  "Scholarly" questions= ?

Sounds like ideology (and ideological decisions) creeping into the proce= ss to me.

BTW, how would you do it for Lit. professors?

--John
--part1_15b.2e322282.2d66fa5b_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 07:19:20 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KCJKO22098 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:19:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4035EFBE.10CC6ECA@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:30:06 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Drew University:Desktop:20001026} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? References: <9645953.1077231123081.JavaMail.root@grover.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I'd say Salinger's ideas go back to Kant's sources rather than Kant -- it's not so much the categorical imperative, in other words, as Salinger's rather eastern appropriation of Matthew 27. I wouldn't say that tranquility or happiness were the goal here, but the byproduct. I think Zooey's advice was an attempt to attack the root of Fanny's problem. Zooey, I believe, was motivated by a desire to ease Fanny's suffering, perhaps, and help her be a bit more of an honest person (by pointing out the convenience of her chosen location for her "breakdown"). Jim Luke Smith wrote: > > A little bit of Kant in there, then. But was JDS more concerned with, say, happiness or some sort of tranquility - that Franny could stop reciting the prayer, if she served phoniness as long as it is a manifestation of something human, whereas Kant would say it's an imperative > > luke > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Rovira > Sent: Feb 19, 2004 9:51 AM > To: bananafish@roughdraft.org > Subject: Re: A paradox of phoniness for JDS fans? > > Pretty good. I think the paradox is legit. -- the values demand that > frustration. But I think the end of FZ points in another direction too > -- the same values tell us to value people, regardless. It's not just a > matter of dealing with it. I think it's a matter of serving what you > love the most by serving the phonies, or the "fat ladies." > > Jim > > Luke Smith wrote: > > >Like a good Southern boy should, Iâ??ve seethed in silence over the social pretenses of deb parties, thank-you notes, and phony stuff like that. But Catcher is not the text which hooked me on JDS, so this was somewhat of a difficult question for me. What do yâ??all think about this: > > > >I used a Nine Stories quote for my â??Welcome to our newspaper compâ?? speech (the quote about the interesting artist from DeDaumier-Smith) this evening, and a fellow editor said he was a Salinger fan and that heâ??d come to a new appreciation of Catcher in college. â??There are a lot of phony people here,â?? he said, or something like that. > > > >Itâ??s true that thereâ??s a lot of phoniness here; we even have pseudo-fraternity things which are premised on it, and itâ??s somewhat of social survival skill in these parts. But something Jim said about Zooeyâ??s consolation to Franny at the end of F&Z made me think of phoniness as a mediocrity of sorts, so instead of railing against it if only subconsciously, shouldnâ??t it be acknowledged as something that just is? It seemed apparent to me then the inconsistency with the spirit of what JDS was saying of getting all frustrated about it, but somehow, â??deal with it, dudeâ?? didnâ??t seem a satisfactory response either. > > > >What do you guys think? > > > >luke > > > > > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 07:19:20 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KCJK322093 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:19:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005001c3f78c$5eb97380$31a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Subject: Re: hands off the universities bring on the boots Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:33:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... add it to the list with unicorns, leprechauns, and 5 leaf clovers ..' We can't, of course, ask him to name names. But I wonder does Jim actually know of ANY senior academic sacked for laziness or incompetence. Even in this land notorious for its begrudgers I can think of only one, maybe two, who were - not sacked - but gently sidelined for what the sisters perceived to be inkerrekt language or behaviour. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:19 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1JH07279 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403612A4.8070307@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:59:00 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: hands off the universities bring on the boots References: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> <005001c3f78c$5eb97380$31a57dc2@j8l6n9> In-Reply-To: <005001c3f78c$5eb97380$31a57dc2@j8l6n9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I guess the problem lies with the word "senior." Someone who's been tenured can, technically, just laze his/her way through until retirement if they wanted to, I suppose. Of course some do. I didn't just post a story about a junior academic who's been "sacked" (i.e., contract not renewed). But given all the hoops that needed to be jumped through by a senior academic to get there... Jim Scottie Bowman wrote: > '... add it to the list with unicorns, leprechauns, and 5 leaf > clovers ..' > > We can't, of course, ask him to name names. But I wonder > does Jim actually know of ANY senior academic sacked > for laziness or incompetence. > > Even in this land notorious for its begrudgers I can think of only > one, maybe two, who were - not sacked - but gently sidelined > for what the sisters perceived to be inkerrekt language or behaviour. > > Scottie B. > > >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1Iw07273 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40361118.9010208@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:52:24 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: hands off the universities bring on the boots References: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Nah, it's being fired for lack of work. It's not even really being fired. When someone's hired for a tenure track position, it's usually a three year contract. Last time we had a prof that wasn't working -- not sitting on committees, not reading application files (for either new hires or new students), heck, not even returning student papers -- his contract wasn't renewed. He wasn't working. At least not much. He was brilliant in the classroom, though. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >"get the boot", a professor fired for his work. Amazing, add it to the >list with unicorns, leprechauns, and 5 leaf clovers. >Daniel > > >Professors at my current university... They are very >busy. Those who aren't usually get the boot. > >Jim >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:17 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1HA07261 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:17 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Feb 2004 08:42:09 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Feb 2004 08:42:09 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 403638D3.ADC2.55C1.000] Content-Identifier: 01732403638E1002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <403638D3.ADC2.55C1.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 20 Feb 2004 08:42:09 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, nowekm1@southernct.edu Subject: Re: Antolini=Big Holden Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I like that. Perhaps Spencer is how he will be as a very old man. ? I wonder whatever happened to old Viola. I mean, how does a writer decide that one sister is enough. Why change Vincent to D.B.? Just to distance the book from earlier magazine stories? I guess that makes sense. But the mysterious Kenneth. Why change his name? He wasn't in any of the early magazine stories? Do these characters grow up to be Glasses' in Salinger's mind? Is Viola the baby that Kenneth rocks and tells the story of Po Lo? And what about Curtis Caulfield (From Seymour's Intro) an exceptionally intelligent and likeable boy on the radio with S. and buddy, who, like Vincent, was eventually killed, except not in hurtgen forest this time, but during one of the landings in the Pacific. Why make these changes? They are inconsequential, aren't they? Would it be SO FAR OUT, that Holden Caulfield lives in the same New York as Zooey Glass? >>> nowekm1@southernct.edu 02/19/04 08:57PM >>> Hello Everyone, I was looking through the Bananafish archives and I found an interesting post that suggested Antolini may be a glimpse of Holden's future. I could difinitely see Holden growing up as the sensitive teacher trying to save teenagers just as little Holden hoped to save children. Any thoughts? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:19 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1Jv07292 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040220142408.62717.qmail@web41710.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:24:08 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: RE: hands off the universities bring on the boots To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200402192004.i1JK4aeC008991@palisade.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > "get the boot", a professor fired for his work. > Amazing, add it to the > list with unicorns, leprechauns, and 5 leaf clovers. > Daniel > Amazing! When I told my favorite professor I might want to become a professor, he showed me this week's Chronicle of Higher Education because there's a story about several professors who "got the boot." He told me that I would be happier outside of academe but I think he thinks that because he's seen me dance. Esmé 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1Lr07310 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040220190207.13980.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:02:07 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Nabokov re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "Seldom more than two or three really first-rate writers exist simultaneously in a given generation. Salinger and Updike are by far the finest artists in recent years." --1965 interview "Thanks for suggesting I write about J. D. Salinger: I do admire him very much but am struggling in a whirlpool of work which does not allow me to produce that article..." --1971 letter to the editor of the NYT Book Review "... a small number of A-plus stories [in American literature; one of which is] J. D. Salinger's "A Perfect Day for Bananafish." This is a great story, too famous and fragile to be measured here by a casual conchometrist." -- the essay "Inspiration", 1972 "... both Nabokovs were particularly smitten with Salinger's "Raise High the Roofbeam, Carpenters" at the time." --undated, c. 1961, from biography of Vera Nabokov "They remained intently focused on America, plying emissaries for the latest news, the latest scuttlebutt--Was Jason Epstein corrupting American youth? Was the eminent scholar who had visited earlier gay? What was Mr. Pynch-ON like? Was it true about Joyce Maynard and J. D. Salinger?" --undated, from biography of Vera Nabokov --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1LY07309 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040220143416.59027.qmail@web41702.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:34:16 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Holden and Sunny To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <4034CFC0.6070403@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- James Rovira wrote: > I think he cared about the hooker as a person, > rather than just a piece > of ass, and that was the source of most of his > problems (esp. since she > didn't know how to react to that). > > Jim > > Professor Jim, Is it possible that Holden was not typical and wanted love more than sex? Esmé 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:21 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1Lr07316 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040220194012.52922.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: EBW to JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "December 17, 1951 Dear Mr. Salinger: It was good of you to write that note, and I thank you for what you said. I felt worried, as well as sick, attempting to say anything about Ross in his own magazine. A letter like yours helps relieve the worry. Sincerely, E. B. White" This comes from "The Letters of E. B. White," edited by Dorothy Lobrano Guth, daughter of one of the two dedicatees of "Nine Stories." Salinger is writing in response to White's obituary of Harold Ross. I wonder why JDS allowed the publication of White's letter to him. If not in the trash, I wonder where JDS's letter is. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1Ib07267 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4036108A.9040304@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:50:02 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <200402192000.i1JK05w6007852@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402192000.i1JK05w6007852@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha. If I were interested in buttering my bread, there'd certainly be better ways... Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Jim, you sure know which side your bread is buttered. I guess the fence >wasn't comfortable enough this time 'round. Bold, very bold Jim. I am >pleasantly surprised. Now we know that maybe, just maybe, there good for >more than just making babies in the Rovira estate. >Daniel > > >The fact is, they do. >Jim > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:19 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1JU07286 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:19 -0500 (EST) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:03:39 EST Subject: From the morning papers To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ca.27f64bc9.2d676dbb_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_ca.27f64bc9.2d676dbb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we're all riffing and ripping on academics, I thought I should share this news item, for those who are interested or know these people.... I saw it in the morning paper.... In the upcoming issue of New York magazine, Naomi Wolf accuses Harold Bloom of sexually harassing her when she was a Yale undergrad in the 80's. This should be fun, --John --part1_ca.27f64bc9.2d676dbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since we're all riffing and ripping=20= on academics, I thought I should share this news item, for those who are int= erested or know these people....

I saw it in the morning paper....

In the upcoming issue of New York magazine, Naomi Wolf accuses Harold Bl= oom of sexually harassing her when she was a Yale undergrad in the 80's.

This should be fun,

--John
--part1_ca.27f64bc9.2d676dbb_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 15:01:20 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1KK1K207303 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:01:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040220143203.60585.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 06:32:03 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: RE: hands off the universities To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE101E4D04@exchange.ursinus.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org -Hooray for James! If I had to take a course from a teacher on the list, I think it would be him or John. I also have to say that I rather like my teachers AND part of what I like is reading what they write. For example, I don't understand a lot of my creative writing teacher's poetry, but I understand why he doesn't like it when I rhyme because he never does. I don't understand much of what Scottie says so I'm sorry if I'm messing up here, but I don't see how publishing and research and teaching are such separate things. My education professor says classrooms are learning laboratories for professors, and he like to observe and write about his insights. The way he says it, one serves the other, and visa versa. Esmé 4 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 20 21:29:29 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1L2TTf21205 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:29:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40366888.5060701@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:05:28 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Holden and Sunny References: <20040220143416.59027.qmail@web41702.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040220143416.59027.qmail@web41702.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org that's possible. I'm thinking Holden knew better than to expect that from a hooker, but then again...he was very young. Jim Esme Four wrote: >--- James Rovira wrote: > > >>I think he cared about the hooker as a person, >>rather than just a piece >>of ass, and that was the source of most of his >>problems (esp. since she >>didn't know how to react to that). >> >>Jim >> >>Professor Jim, Is it possible that Holden was not >> >> >typical and wanted love more than sex? > >Esmé 4 > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. >http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 16:51:10 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1NLpAn12529 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:51:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402231528.i1NFS4sY009893@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse... Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:28:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Not all butter is green Jim. Daniel Ha. If I were interested in buttering my bread, there'd certainly be better ways... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 16:51:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1NLp9o12517 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:51:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402231522.i1NFMG6V008126@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: hands off the universities Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:22:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i1NFMXb23317 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Esmé 4, the guinea pig squeals imponderables. I have an image of a non-smoker carrying a lighter in her pocket for that right moment to light her teachers butt. Daniel -Hooray for James! If I had to take a course from a teacher on the list, I think it would be him or John. I also have to say that I rather like my teachers AND part of what I like is reading what they write. For example, I don't understand a lot of my creative writing teacher's poetry, but I understand why he doesn't like it when I rhyme because he never does. I don't understand much of what Scottie says so I'm sorry if I'm messing up here, but I don't see how publishing and research and teaching are such separate things. My education professor says classrooms are learning laboratories for professors, and he like to observe and write about his insights. The way he says it, one serves the other, and visa versa. Esmé 4 - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 16:51:10 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1NLpAo12535 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:51:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402231531.i1NFVRrX010887@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: From the morning papers Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:31:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "we're"? This isn't survivor John O., no one is going to vote you off. Why worry unless you have been having fun with some undergrads too? Daniel Since we're all riffing and ripping on academics, I thought I should share this news item, for those who are interested or know these people.... I saw it in the morning paper.... In the upcoming issue of New York magazine, Naomi Wolf accuses Harold Bloom of sexually harassing her when she was a Yale undergrad in the 80's. This should be fun, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 16:51:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1NLp9q12522 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:51:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402231527.i1NFRBuF009576@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: hands off the universities bring on the boots Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:27:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i1NFRLb23521 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yea, I'm always reading fantastic stuff too. If there were a Chronicle that covered other professions firing activity it wouldn't be a story it would be the whole chronicle. You need to get out more often for other things besides shaking your booty. Daniel Amazing! When I told my favorite professor I might want to become a professor, he showed me this week's Chronicle of Higher Education because there's a story about several professors who "got the boot." He told me that I would be happier outside of academe but I think he thinks that because he's seen me dance. Esmé 4 - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 16:51:11 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1NLpBw12540 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:51:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040223192808.29000.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Perelman re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org from "Don't Tread on Me: The Selected Letters of S.J. Perelman": We have a date to meet Jerry Salinger and have dinner with him up there, entailing a 50-mile drive for him from his mountain retreat at Windsor. He has been holed in there all this time presumably forging verbs and gerundives. Personally, I'd go crazy all alone on a crag, and I fully expect him to break into wild laughter during the meal and goose waitresses. --1953 Jerry's in fine shape (though looking a little hunted because of those acolytes who steal up his mountain in their bare feet to get The Word) and is just about to build a small garage with a workroom above it. This appears to be his only concession to notoriety. --1962 For J. D. Salinger --1970, dedication page of Perelman's book, "Baby, It's Cold Inside. I ended up spending a night with Jerry Salinger, up on the Vermont border, in his eyrie. We hadn't seen each other for six years, and I'm glad to report that he looks fine, feels fine, and is working hard, so you can dispel all those rumors, manufactured in Hollywood by people to whom he won't sell Catcher in the Rye, to the effect that he has taken leave of his senses. --1976 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 22:35:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1O3Z9R24607 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:35:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040223225047.43731.qmail@web60905.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:50:47 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Cheever re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The week "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" came out, John Cheever wrote to Gus Lobrano, "I thought the Salinger piece was one hell of a story." When I went in to correct galleys I found that the story had been cut in half and was told that Mr. Shawn wanted it this way. I saw trouble ahead and told Bill [William Maxwell] I'd meet him at the club in half an hour and had a couple of drinks. I kept the conversation, during lunch, on the subject of his wife and children but when we said goodbye he asked about the cut. "Do anything you want," I said and walked over to the station where I bought a copy of Life in which J. D. Salinger was compared to William Blake, Ludwig von Beethoven and William Shakespeare. I went into a slow burn which didn't erupt until nine that evening when I telephoned Bill who happened to be entertaining Elizabeth Bowen and Eudora Welty. "You cut that story," I yelled, "and I'll never write another story for you or anybody else. You can get that Godamned sixth-rate Salinger to write your Godamned short stories but don't expect anything more out of me. --1961 [story ran without cut] [followed by Cheever's letter to William Maxwell]: Dear Bill, I had your letter after seeing you and perhaps I should explain my reference or whatever to Salinger. It was merely the coincidence, providential as I see it now, of reading a piece in which Salinger was compared to Blake, Beethoven and Shakespeare a half hour after my own judgments and gifts had been seriously challenged. I admire Salinger, of course, and I think I know where his giftedness lies and how rare it is. --1961 Q: What was it like being on the cover of Time magazine (in March of 1964)? A: I tried to stop the story. It was at that time in my life that I thought publicity was abominable. I've since changed my mind. I said, "I don't want the story" and they said, "We didn't ask." They ask you to pose for a portrait but if you don't there are files and files of photos they can use. You do what you want and they do what they want. Jerry Salinger refused them and had a trauma and I wanted to avoid that. I went skiing in Stowe and I was followed down the slopes by a Time editor, researcher and a photographer, I guess. The FBI is nothing compared to being on the cover of Time. Some boys I played marbles with when I was little called me from Wilmington, Del. and said: "What have you done wrong? Two people from Time magazine are coming up to see us in 20 minutes." --1974 interview I keep telling myself that they [Time magazine] can do me no good and they can do me no harm and it's better this way than hiding in the bathroom like Salinger who never seemed to find his way out. --1964 Once you show a trace of healthy self-esteem the New Yorker will yank at the rug you stand on. I was hurt the first time around; but never again. Bill [William Maxwell], after forty years remains indecipherable. I thought I once understood him. It seemed that he was a man who mistook power for love. If you don't grow and change he baits you; if you do grow and change he baits you cruelly. I once shouted at him: "You many have invented Salinger and Brodkey but you didn't invent me." I intended to dedicate The Scandal to him but he was murderous about the book and I changed the dedication to W.M. He underwent a sea-change and praised the book but the dedication remained W.M. He loves me and would love to see me dead. --1975 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 22:35:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1O3Z9Y24609 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:35:09 -0500 (EST) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 23 Feb 2004 14:11:51 -0800 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 23 Feb 2004 14:11:51 -0800 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 403A7A9F.ADC2.B4A6.000] Content-Identifier: 05FB4403A7AA7021 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(1), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(6), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(100) Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <403A7A9F.ADC2.B4A6.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 23 Feb 2004 14:11:51 -0800 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: OT: history made 2/20/04 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i1O1aYb20409 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org history was made last Friday night in london. brian wilson performed smile. 37 years late, but better thanever. it would have been an equivalent event had hapworth came out in book form finally, and j.d. himself was planning to do book tours to promote it and sign some autographs. -mike http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7948-1008750,00.html >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 02/23/04 01:53PM >>> Esm 4, the guinea pig squeals imponderables. I have an image of a non-smoker carrying a lighter in her pocket for that right moment to light her teachers butt. Daniel -Hooray for James! If I had to take a course from a teacher on the list, I think it would be him or John. I also have to say that I rather like my teachers AND part of what I like is reading what they write. For example, I don't understand a lot of my creative writing teacher's poetry, but I understand why he doesn't like it when I rhyme because he never does. I don't understand much of what Scottie says so I'm sorry if I'm messing up here, but I don't see how publishing and research and teaching are such separate things. My education professor says classrooms are learning laboratories for professors, and he like to observe and write about his insights. The way he says it, one serves the other, and visa versa. Esm 4 - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Feb 23 22:35:08 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1O3Z8d24597 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:35:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403A77F4.8050900@drew.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:00:20 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <200402231528.i1NFS4sY009893@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402231528.i1NFS4sY009893@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org That's the only butter that I can think of as relevant to our discussion...what did you have in mind, then? I worked in construction for 16 years, so I know all about private industry. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Not all butter is green Jim. >Daniel > > > >Ha. If I were interested in buttering my bread, there'd certainly be >better ways... > >Jim > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 07:07:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1OC7wa12865 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:07:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: Subject: still hurt Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:07:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org After all these years, a lone yelp of pain .... & after all these years, Tim finally stifles my mouth with that big, downy cushion of his ...... Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 07:17:53 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1OCHr713213 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:17:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: still hurt Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 07:16:21 -0500 Message-Id: <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 24, 2004, rbowman@indigo.ie said: > After all these years, a lone yelp of pain .... & after all > these years, Tim finally stifles my mouth with that big, > downy cushion of his ...... Eh, what? I would offer an explanation if I knew what this meant! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 18:41:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1ONfIE11135 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:41:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040224191133.61006.qmail@web60905.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:11:33 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: from "The Journals of John Cheever" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "Hemingway shot himself yesterday morning. There was a great man. I remember walking down a street in Boston after reading a book of his, and finding the color of the sky, the faces of strangers, and the smells of the city heightened and dramatized. The most important thing he did for me was to legitimatize manly courage, a quality that I had heard, until I came on his work, extolled by Scoutmasters and others who made it seem a fraud. He put down an immense vision of love and friendship, swallows and the sound of rain. There was never, in my time, anyone to compare with him." --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 18:41:16 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1ONfG011112 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:41:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403B61FB.3020203@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:38:51 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: still hurt References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I was wondering too, but I suspect a message Scottie posted didn't make it through to the list. Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: >On Tue, Feb 24, 2004, rbowman@indigo.ie said: > > > >> After all these years, a lone yelp of pain .... & after all >> these years, Tim finally stifles my mouth with that big, >> downy cushion of his ...... >> >> > >Eh, what? I would offer an explanation if I knew what this meant! > >--tim > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 18:41:17 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1ONfHw11123 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:41:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> Subject: Re: still hurt Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:33:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org About three days ago, I sent in a mail expressing my sense of failure that Esme (whom, incidentally, I'd assumed - by the spelling of the name - to be male) found my stuff largely incomprehensible. Having always cherished clarity beyond godliness, I felt utterly crushed - as you can imagine. The only other guy actually to come out in public with such a comment was the Associate Professor. But, of course, I never paid any attention to him. Since it never appeared, I assumed Tim had been so moved by my devastation that he had, in his kindness, decided to let it quietly die. That was all. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 18:41:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1ONfIx11140 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:41:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402242038.i1OKcP4l029782@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse... Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:38:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The rotting gasses expanding the carcass in to a tight kettle drum, BOOM BOOM BOOM... Jim, of all people if any who should know, that creamy fluffy white empty caloried butter called the inner ring. Yea you worked in construction, you're an ex-spurt there too. Daniel That's the only butter that I can think of as relevant to our discussion...what did you have in mind, then? I worked in construction for 16 years, so I know all about private industry. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 20:51:15 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1P1pF716531 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:51:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE101E4D24@exchange.ursinus.edu> From: "Kozusko, Matthew" To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org '" Subject: RE: from "The Journals of John Cheever" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:13:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Thanks for these little gems, Bruce. I've been enjoying them. Matt - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 20:51:15 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1P1pFS16532 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:51:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:49:00 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: still hurt Message-ID: <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 04:33:56PM -0000, Scottie Bowman wrote: > About three days ago, I sent in a mail expressing my sense > of failure that Esme (whom, incidentally, I'd assumed - by > the spelling of the name - to be male) found my stuff largely > incomprehensible. Having always cherished clarity beyond > godliness, I felt utterly crushed - as you can imagine. Lots of problems with the list recently, much related to Internet worms, viruses, hacks. We haven't been hacked or infected, but I have held all that at bay with the manual control. We lose some timeliness, but we keep our feet clean. Daniel even contacted me (nicely!) to get missing messages. Someone else also missed some messages, and I bounced them copies. Scottie, sometimes clarity takes a backseat to hostility, n'est ce pas? > The only > other guy actually to come out in public with such a comment > was the Associate Professor. But, of course, I never paid > any attention to him. Nor, I hope, he to you. I probably sound cranky -- hell, I AM cranky, having to shovel the horse shit out of these Augean Stables for several weeks straight -- but frankly I don't appreciate your taking a swipe (a gratuitous swipe, it seems to me) at someone who is not around to defend himself and who is my friend. Snideliness is not next to godliness nor to anything else. One of the most civilized online places I frequent has a nice, orderly rule: attack the idea, not the person. Of course, that place has actual hosts who are empowered to kick off anyone who is abusive. In the umpteen years I've been doing this job, through much pink vapor of malicious intent, I have never removed a person or a message, and I hope to keep it that way. But please, please, please do not try my patience by casting aspersions on people who are not here to speak for themselves. It's rude and it is unworthy of you, Scottie, and it befouls the nest, really. > Since it never appeared, I assumed Tim had been so moved > by my devastation that he had, in his kindness, decided to let > it quietly die. > > That was all. Nope, just went missing and didn't show in the digest or anywhere else. Send it along again if you have it in your outbox, and I'll happily pass it along. But don't be rude and don't be destructive for destruction's sake. If anyone should misinterpret this message to assume I expect this to be some kind of Candyland of niceness, you are sadly mistaken. There is plenty of brutality to be found here, and there is even, perversely, a place for that. But personal swipes at exiled friends ... I like to think you are better than that. I assume we are talking about the same professor, by the way. Be witty, be erudite, show off your superior verbal skills, shower us with immaculate prose. Just don't push the boundaries of reasonableness. OK? It's possible, of course, that I misinterpret your explanation of the message that was lost, and if I did, I apologize. And I'm not a prude and I'm by no means a typical American you can accuse of political correctness or any of the other "dirty, easy labels" (to steal a phrase from Ernesto), and I'm not small-minded and I'm not any of those brickbats you hurl at people. But I'm quite snarlingly mad at the disruption this list causes me, and it pains me to no end to spend my limited energy releasing messages that are nasty for the sake of being nasty. Just ... let's shine our shoes for the fat lady, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap. --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 21:08:38 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1P28cO17343 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:07:37 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: from "The Journals of John Cheever" Message-ID: <20040225020736.GA20337@panix.com> References: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE101E4D24@exchange.ursinus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5FF81408E6DBD211AEAD00104B93CAFE101E4D24@exchange.ursinus.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:13:12PM -0500, Kozusko, Matthew wrote: > Thanks for these little gems, Bruce. I've been enjoying them. I second Matt's thanks. Bruce, it's like watching someone (in your home city, no less!) in 1849, going into the wilderness and coming back with sacks of gold ore. The Cheever journals are extraordinary for the observations of other writers. Lillian Ross's Here But Not Here was also an intriguing peek into Salinger's life (with photographs!). For anyone who truly enjoys Cheever, there was a very fine novel a couple of years ago called Lit Life, about a young writer who has early success with his first book, then hits a sophomore slump with the second book. He enters into a kind of apprenticeship with an older writer whose life (through his wife's eyes) is a lot like Cheever's. She reads the Journals through the book, finding parallels between Cheever's home life and her own. It's a haunting book, and I look forward to the writer's next effort. Unfortunately, the writer, Kurt Wenzel, didn't sell enough copies to float his boat, and so he continues to wait on tables. At one book party, his publisher was present, and he served her from the platter he carried around the room, and he did not have the nerve to tell her, "Hey, you're publishing my novel in a couple of weeks." Now, tell me THAT is not a sad state of affairs. America eats its own. The Irish have no monopoly on that, though if you believe James Joyce they have been at it a lot longer and may be a lot better at it than we are. Scottie even alluded to it recently in saying (and I paraphrase badly) that the Irish are always ready to begrudge anyone who has a bit of success. Plenty of evidence of that in the fiction of John McGahern, for instance. Anyway, Bruce, please do continue to pass along these gold nuggets. Some of us reach the end of the day to find we lack the strength to open a paperback binding, much less to do heavy lifting. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Feb 24 21:08:37 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1P28bc17337 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:08:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 21:01:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden-Bad Role Model? To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <4812705.1077674505443.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, At the moment, I'm reading Sanford Pinker's "Catcher in the Rye: Innocence Under Pressure" and in one section Pinker says that the most widely given reason for the banning of "Catcher" is that Holden is a bad role model. To me, that's pretty ridiculous because I don't feel that literary characters need to be role models in order to engage students in positive ways. I guess I don't really have a specific question but I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this matter considering "Catcher" is still being banned in many schools today from what I hear. Thanks. -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 09:48:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PEmwu15085 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003201c3fb74$791986c0$34a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> Subject: never really hurt Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:53:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... the only other guy..... but, of course, I never paid any attention to him....' Abuse? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 09:48:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PEmwX15092 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403CACA5.1020005@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:09:41 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <200402242038.i1OKcP4l029782@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402242038.i1OKcP4l029782@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha. The "inner ring" of what? Just how much cultural currency do you think a prof has? I'd be better off in politics or industry. I've been parts of so many inner rings that the prospect bores me now. I'm sure not jumping through all these hoops for -that-, let me tell you. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >The rotting gasses expanding the carcass in to a tight kettle drum, BOOM >BOOM BOOM... >Jim, of all people if any who should know, that creamy fluffy white empty >caloried butter called the inner ring. Yea you worked in construction, >you're an ex-spurt there too. >Daniel > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 09:48:59 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PEmxO15097 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:48:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403CAE7D.3030206@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:17:33 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Some facts about the Dead Horse References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org *Fewer professors spend a full day on campus* *By Kimberly Chase* | Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor The full-time tenured professor is becoming an endangered species. The reason: money. As universities drift away from the traditional model of the full-time professor, a cheaper alternative is taking their place - part-timers who often teach at several institutions. "It's definitely been a trend, probably for the last 30 years, and we're hoping that we can begin to make it even more clear that we're at the point of endangering the quality of higher education," says John Curtis, director of research at the American Association of University Professors in Washington. But some say the shift is already taking its toll. Some students complain they receive less of the mentoring and personal interaction they had hoped would help them deal with future graduate studies or the competitive business world. Newer academics see a compromised job market in which many who would prefer to work full time end up traveling from campus to campus to put together a decent salary. The percentage of postsecondary professors working full time has decreased over the past 16 years, according to studies from the US Department of Education. In 1987, 67 percent of faculty were full time, and 58 percent of those professors had tenure. Another study shows that by 2001-2, only 55 percent were full time, with 45 percent of those tenured. Nationwide, part-timers account for a large share of overall teaching hours. In 1998, according to the Department of Education, part-time faculty spent 89 percent of their time on teaching, versus 65 percent for full-time faculty, who had more time for research. For students, with nearly half their professors working part time, the chances of getting to know them are slim. Particularly in introductory classes, it is increasingly common for students to be taught by nonpermanent faculty. "In many cases, part-time faculty are teaching the basic introductory classes, so they really are the gateway instructors into the various disciplines," says Mr. Curtis. Samantha Yoon, a first-year student at Columbia University in New York, had graduate-student teachers for two of her five classes in her first semester. In a third class, Principles of Economics, she had contact mainly with teaching assistants. Columbia University's percentage of full-time faculty exceeds the national average, but since the 1980s the school has followed the trend toward more part-timers. Between October 1987 and October 2003, full-time faculty dropped from roughly 72 to 62 percent, as the percentage of tenured professors fell from 51 to 48 percent. Some argue, however, that the system of large lectures with teaching assistants allows professors to concentrate on doing what they are best at. "It would be very inefficient to have 10 professors teaching the same introductory class material to several hundred students in aggregate," says David Weinstein, a tenured professor of economics at Columbia. At the University of Iowa, part-time faculty make up about 46 percent of the total, sometimes supplementing regular faculty in ways that the school says strengthen curriculum. "We use our part-time faculty to fill particular niches," says Kathryn Wynes, faculty human resources specialist at the school. "We may use them for overflow in a very popular course area. We may have part-time faculty that have a very distinct expertise in an area that we like to make use of." But for some students, gains in efficiency and even expertise don't make up for lack of access. At New York University, Michelle Haase, a junior majoring in communications, estimates that 20 percent of her professors are part time. "They have another job and they teach maybe one or two classes [here]," she says. At Hunter College, part of the City University of New York (CUNY), students report that most of their professors are full time, but note occasional problems with part-time faculty. Randy Arroyave, a junior majoring in biology, had an introductory English class with a part-time professor who also teaches elsewhere and was not always present for his office hours. "It made a difference not having him here at school," says Mr. Arroyave. "If you know that they're not there during their office hours, then you feel kind of iffy about the rest of the class." Jessica Perez, a senior in psychology at Hunter, wonders about having so many classes taught by graduate students rather than more experienced professors. "The graduate students, especially if you're a senior, they're not that far away from you," she says. "They're sort of confused and trying things out." CUNY reports that in fall 2002, at all of its campuses, 52 percent of its classes were taught by part-timers, some of whom were graduate-student teachers. At the University of Texas at Dallas, 34 percent of the faculty worked part time in the fall of 2003, as opposed to 20 percent in 1986-7. It's all about economic necessity, says Lawrence Redlinger, executive director of strategic planning at the school. "Since the mid-'80s the amount of state assistance and the amount of federal government assistance have slowly been declining," he says. "So as the higher-education index rises and the amount of state assistance in real terms declines, there are cost pressures, and the easiest way to relieve those cost pressures is to go to part-time faculty members whom you ... pay less, on average." Students are not the only ones affected by the trend. For career academics, it means less job security and fewer opportunities to advance. Part-timers are often not included in conferences and other aspects of university life. "In some cases they're not even able to use the libraries at the universities or colleges where they teach unless they can do it as a member of the public, and that's sort of the ultimate indignity," says Curtis of the AAUP. They also lack job security and can be hired or fired at the last minute, according to levels of enrollment. In an environment where fewer and fewer tenure-track jobs are available, an adjunct position can mean endless academic limbo instead of a path toward a career. At the same time, the graduate students who sometimes teach in place of full-time faculty are often unhappy as well. Many complain of low wages and few benefits. "It seems to be that it's more and more common that graduate students will be teaching courses on their own," says Curtis. "The model used to be that they would serve as teaching assistants to a regular faculty member." Many graduate students begin teaching with no experience and a plate full of other responsibilities. Jennifer Kong, a third-year doctoral student in Education Psychology at CUNY's Graduate Center, taught an introductory class on child development last semester. She found it difficult to balance her first teaching experience with four classes, a two-day-a-week externship, and two other part-time jobs. "They don't really have a course that teaches you how to go about teaching," she says. "I sort of had to do it as a trial-and-error type of thing." As colleges cut back on full-timers, some observers worry, they whittle away at the essential academic experience. Some schools are now acting to correct the situation. CUNY, for example, hired 500 new full-timers this year, and its chancellor is working toward a goal of having 70 percent of instruction done by full-time professors. But few believe most universities will return to past levels of full-time staffing. "What's interesting is that [use of part-time faculty] has leveled off," says Richard Ekman, president of the Council of Independent Colleges in Washington, D.C. But as for the likelihood of a return to full-time staffing levels of the past, he says, "I doubt [it], given the finances of colleges and universities." - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 09:48:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PEmwn15087 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040225140038.67374.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:00:38 -0800 (PST) From: David Johnson Subject: Re: from "The Journals of John Cheever" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040225020736.GA20337@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-793115702-1077717638=:65945" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-793115702-1077717638=:65945 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I, too, am greatly appreciative, Bruce. In my Salingermania of years past I used to comb through memoirs, biographies, etc., looking for Salinger in the index, hoping to turn up new anecdotes or mentions. You are doing a great service for us all! David Tim O'Connor wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:13:12PM -0500, Kozusko, Matthew wrote: > Thanks for these little gems, Bruce. I've been enjoying them. I second Matt's thanks. Bruce, it's like watching someone (in your home city, no less!) in 1849, going into the wilderness and coming back with sacks of gold ore. The Cheever journals are extraordinary for the observations of other writers. Lillian Ross's Here But Not Here was also an intriguing peek into Salinger's life (with photographs!). For anyone who truly enjoys Cheever, there was a very fine novel a couple of years ago called Lit Life, about a young writer who has early success with his first book, then hits a sophomore slump with the second book. He enters into a kind of apprenticeship with an older writer whose life (through his wife's eyes) is a lot like Cheever's. She reads the Journals through the book, finding parallels between Cheever's home life and her own. It's a haunting book, and I look forward to the writer's next effort. Unfortunately, the writer, Kurt Wenzel, didn't sell enough copies to float his boat, and so he continues to wait on tables. At one book party, his publisher was present, and he served her from the platter he carried around the room, and he did not have the nerve to tell her, "Hey, you're publishing my novel in a couple of weeks." Now, tell me THAT is not a sad state of affairs. America eats its own. The Irish have no monopoly on that, though if you believe James Joyce they have been at it a lot longer and may be a lot better at it than we are. Scottie even alluded to it recently in saying (and I paraphrase badly) that the Irish are always ready to begrudge anyone who has a bit of success. Plenty of evidence of that in the fiction of John McGahern, for instance. Anyway, Bruce, please do continue to pass along these gold nuggets. Some of us reach the end of the day to find we lack the strength to open a paperback binding, much less to do heavy lifting. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --0-793115702-1077717638=:65945 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I, too, am greatly appreciative, Bruce.  In my Salingermania of years past I used to comb through memoirs, biographies, etc., looking for Salinger in the index, hoping to turn up new anecdotes or mentions.  You are doing a great service for us all!
David

Tim O'Connor <tim@roughdraft.org> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 24, 2004 at 08:13:12PM -0500, Kozusko, Matthew wrote:

> Thanks for these little gems, Bruce. I've been enjoying them.

I second Matt's thanks. Bruce, it's like watching someone (in your
home city, no less!) in 1849, going into the wilderness and coming back
with sacks of gold ore.

The Cheever journals are extraordinary for the observations of other
writers. Lillian Ross's Here But Not Here was also an intriguing peek
into Salinger's life (with photographs!).

For anyone who truly enjoys Cheever, there was a very fine novel a
couple of years ago called Lit Life, about a young writer who has early
success with his first book, then hits a sophomore slump with the second
book. He enters into a kind of apprenticeship with an older writer
whose life (through his wife's eyes) is a lot like Cheever's. She
reads the Journals through the book, finding parallels between Cheever's
home life and her own. It's a haunting book, and I look forward to the
writer's next effort.

Unfortunately, the writer, Kurt Wenzel, didn't sell enough copies to
float his boat, and so he continues to wait on tables. At one book
party, his publisher was present, and he served her from the platter he
carried around the room, and he did not have the nerve to tell her,
"Hey, you're publishing my novel in a couple of weeks."

Now, tell me THAT is not a sad state of affairs.

America eats its own. The Irish have no monopoly on that, though if you
believe James Joyce they have been at it a lot longer and may be a lot
better at it than we are. Scottie even alluded to it recently in saying
(and I paraphrase badly) that the Irish are always ready to begrudge
anyone who has a bit of success. Plenty of evidence of that in the
fiction of John McGahern, for instance.

Anyway, Bruce, please do continue to pass along these gold nuggets.
Some of us reach the end of the day to find we lack the strength to open
a paperback binding, much less to do heavy lifting.

--tim

-
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. --0-793115702-1077717638=:65945-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 13:04:46 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PI4k721722 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:04:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403CBC7F.2000904@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:17:19 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: never really hurt References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> <003201c3fb74$791986c0$34a57dc2@j8l6n9> In-Reply-To: <003201c3fb74$791986c0$34a57dc2@j8l6n9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I tend to agree with Scottie here. Perhaps Tim was reading more between the lines than I could see? Jim Scottie Bowman wrote: > '... the only other guy..... but, of course, I never paid > any attention to him....' > > Abuse? > > Scottie B. > >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:00 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ0001461 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040225200240.34266.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: "I Opened J. D. Salinger's Letters" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/12/05/story124346.html Here it is (sans photo of Spielberg): "Steven Spielberg wanted to direct a film based on the reclusive J D Salinger's novel Catcher In The Rye, but his offer was never even relayed to the author, according to a memoir that lifts the lid off Salinger’s secretive life. Jaimie Clarke, who formerly worked at the office of Salinger’s agent, Phyllis Westberg, is peddling his book O What Fun We’ll Have! O The Times! Around New York publishing houses, reports the New York Post. It was Clarke’s job to open all the correspondence sent by Salinger to his agent. “I learned about his pets’ maladies, that his favourite movie is ’The Lost Weekend,’ that his house caught fire a number of years ago but has since been rebuilt, that he travels under several nom de plumes, but always uses the first name Jerry, since his wife can’t remember the more complicated ruses, and that, contrary to popular opinion, he is not sitting on a wealth of manuscripts to be published after his death,” he writes. He said DreamWorks studio head Jeffrey Katzenberg once called to make an offer for the rights to Catcher In The Rye, which his partner Spielberg wanted to direct. Miramax boss Harvey Weinstein also made an offer but Salinger, who has never allowed Hollywood to touch any of his works, was not even informed, writes Clarke." *** Anyone know anything else about this? I find it hard to believe Salinger's letters were being opened by anyone but the addressee. And thus find it difficult to accept the "scoop" re the manuscripts. Especially given Peggy Salinger's statement. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:00 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ0S01454 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040225194614.29616.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:46:14 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: from "The Journals of John Cheever" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040225020736.GA20337@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > I second Matt's thanks. Thanks, Matt and tim, for your responses. > Lillian Ross's Here But Not Here was also > an intriguing peek > into Salinger's life (with photographs!). I recall posting some quotes from her book in the good ole days. Here are two links, courtesy of Glass Family Works: http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.oct00/0227.html http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.oct00/0239.html --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:02 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ2V01483 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402252115.i1PLFPwS012196@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse... Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:15:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Who said anything about "cultural currency"? Aspirations of academia mantle-dom, and an aggressive defense of that "-dom"? Daniel Ha. The "inner ring" of what? Just how much cultural currency do you think a prof has? I'd be better off in politics or industry. I've been parts of so many inner rings that the prospect bores me now. I'm sure not jumping through all these hoops for -that-, let me tell you. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >The rotting gasses expanding the carcass in to a tight kettle drum, BOOM >BOOM BOOM... >Jim, of all people if any who should know, that creamy fluffy white empty >caloried butter called the inner ring. Yea you worked in construction, >you're an ex-spurt there too. >Daniel > > > - * Unsubscribing? 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Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:05 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ5S01485 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:23:14 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: never really hurt Message-ID: <20040225222314.GA24025@panix.com> References: <003301c3faad$4968d880$29a57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040224121621.20774@mail.panix.com> <001001c3faf4$1d661760$0fa57dc2@j8l6n9> <20040225014859.GA16924@panix.com> <003201c3fb74$791986c0$34a57dc2@j8l6n9> <403CBC7F.2000904@drew.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <403CBC7F.2000904@drew.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 10:17:19AM -0500, James Rovira wrote: > I tend to agree with Scottie here. Perhaps Tim was reading more between > the lines than I could see? Maybe. Perhaps I'm getting like the crooked cop in The Godfather, who is getting cranky after too many years on the job. Or like the narrator of the Paul Simon song who declares: I don't find this stuff amusing anymore. The point is that I see no reason for gratuitous swipes at someone who is not able to defend himself, someone, incidentally, I like and respect. There is no reason for that kind of attitude. If Scottie wants to take a swing at Will, he ought to do it directly and not behind Will's back. When Scottie snaps at other people here, they speak up and defend themselves, as they should. The "Professor" (of whatever level) is not around to speak up for himself, and I myself feel there is no place for that kind of "oh-by-the-way" snide comment. For what it's worth, I'd say the same thing if it were someone sniping at Scottie. The blood sport that does take place regarding politics, language, and academia, involves people who speak up (quite boldly) for themselves, and that is a lot different than rude remarks about someone who is not participating. It bothers me, and, I guess, as the housekeeper, I feel I should say that. For me to do less would be dishonorable. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:00 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ0c01455 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040225194954.35305.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:49:54 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: from "The Journals of John Cheever" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040225140038.67374.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- David Johnson wrote: > I, too, am greatly appreciative, Bruce. > Thanks, David. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:01 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ1w01474 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402252043.i1PKhcO8003280@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: from "The Journals of John Cheever" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:43:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org That is not a sad state of affairs Tim. I see no greater honor in being recognized as a published writer over being recognized as a waiter or not being recognized period. It seems that maybe Jerome may be onto something. Daniel Unfortunately, the writer, Kurt Wenzel, didn't sell enough copies to float his boat, and so he continues to wait on tables. At one book party, his publisher was present, and he served her from the platter he carried around the room, and he did not have the nerve to tell her, "Hey, you're publishing my novel in a couple of weeks." Now, tell me THAT is not a sad state of affairs. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 17:26:01 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PMQ1O01477 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:26:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402252047.i1PKlSQu004460@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: still hurt and some salt Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:47:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I am used to hymns after sermons but I am not a member of this church Tim, what is customary now, communion? A Hymn? By the way, I thought he was talking about John O. but I guess and expect Scottie the author to clarify that. I was going to say for the sake of truth but bit my lip....not. Daniel But don't be rude and don't be destructive for destruction's sake. --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 18:16:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1PNGui04905 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:16:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403D293F.8030002@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 18:01:19 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <200402252115.i1PLFPwS012196@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Academia mantle-dom? So it's wrong for me to want to be in that profession? I think, within the context of this discussion, you see me protecting academia because I seek to be a part of it. But that's to dismiss the points I've been making without even addressing them. The perceived/potential "attack," I've been saying, comes by way of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist that widely, using methods that are worse than the solutions. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Who said anything about "cultural currency"? Aspirations of academia >mantle-dom, and an aggressive defense of that "-dom"? >Daniel > > > >Ha. The "inner ring" of what? Just how much cultural currency do you >think a prof has? I'd be better off in politics or industry. > >I've been parts of so many inner rings that the prospect bores me now. >I'm sure not jumping through all these hoops for -that-, let me tell you. > >Jim > >Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > > > >>The rotting gasses expanding the carcass in to a tight kettle drum, BOOM >>BOOM BOOM... >>Jim, of all people if any who should know, that creamy fluffy white empty >>caloried butter called the inner ring. Yea you worked in construction, >>you're an ex-spurt there too. >>Daniel >> >> >> - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 20:03:29 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1Q13TC08833 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:03:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402252323.i1PNNqBB010090@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse... Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:23:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org You said: The idea he's specifically talking about is the idea that profs ought to come from a wide range of political opinions. The fact is, they do. I would say humanities profs tend to be left of center, but how much varies from region to region and from school to school. I would say engineering profs tend to be right of center, as well as people in other sciences. But I don't think people are being very smart about this -- at least not smart enough to look at this issue discipline by discipline. You see no problem here? Politics are irrelevant in science and engineering but they seem to occupy a lot of time among the humanities. Why? It is not like you said 'this is interesting lets see" you say instead "not a problem." Jim, who is so accommodating to all kinds of ideologies becomes so certain with that single word, "fact". Daniel Academia mantle-dom? So it's wrong for me to want to be in that profession? I think, within the context of this discussion, you see me protecting academia because I seek to be a part of it. But that's to dismiss the points I've been making without even addressing them. The perceived/potential "attack," I've been saying, comes by way of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist that widely, using methods that are worse than the solutions. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 20:03:30 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1Q13Uq08838 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:03:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: RE: still hurt and some salt Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:02:45 -0500 Message-Id: <20040226010245.427@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <200402252047.i1PKlSQu004460@palisade.peterson.af.mil> References: <200402252047.i1PKlSQu004460@palisade.peterson.af.mil> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Feb 25, 2004, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil said: >I am used to hymns after sermons but I am not a member of this church Tim, >what is customary now, communion? A Hymn? > >By the way, I thought he was talking about John O. but I guess and expect >Scottie the author to clarify that. I was going to say for the sake of >truth but bit my lip....not. The only thing that comes to my poor, tattered mind is: pogue mahone. (Perhaps Scottie can supply details.) --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 21:18:42 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1Q2IgH11788 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:18:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403D4C3E.521C85CA@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:30:38 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Drew University:Desktop:20001026} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse... References: <200402252323.i1PNNqBB010090@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Nonono, Daniel, politics are by no means "irrelevant" in science and engineering. Talk about knowing where your bread is buttered. My father worked as an electrical engineer for about 40 years, until he retired about ten years ago. I remember him telling me, during a discussion about politics, that if he were voting his wallet he'd vote Republican because the big military contracts for engineering firms come from defense spending. The sciences, driven by grant money, have political realities to consider as well -- political realities that determine the type of grants sought, the type of research conducted, and the type of commerically viable findings researchers are always after. And you wonder why people in the sciences and engineering lean right? So let's not be naive about science and engineering, eh? Why do politics occupy time in the humanities? Because the humanities are, specifically, the study of human beings via their creative product. OF COURSE that's always going to have political ramifications. We're political beings. Everything we do has political ramifications -- everything we do is connected, at some level or at one point, with ecomonic, political, and social structures (unless we're a hermit living in a desert somewhere, with no human contact), reflecting them, engaging them, critiquing them, supporting them. By the way, why do you think it's wrong and/or a "problem" to be concerned with politics in the humanities? And why do you think it's somehow contradictory for me to assert "facts"? I can understand multiple ways of thinking without believing them. Not only that, I can understand multiple ways of thinking and incorporate the parts of them I agree with while rejecting the parts I don't. That's what most of us do most of the time. But since you are concerned with "facts" and "truth," why do you disparage them when I present them? It's a fact that most professors aren't tenured faculty, and it's increasingly becoming a fact that most professors in the US aren't even employed full time in a single university. So it's a fact that in the case of most professors, if enough students wrote poor evaluations of that professor one semester, that professor won't be invited back the next one -- there's no need to fire anyone; the prof. only had a one semester contract to begin with. It's also a fact that being a prof. means, increasingly, going into large amounts of debt for a relatively low paying job. My student loan debt will probably wind up being about twice my first year's salary once I'm awarded my Ph.D. And you're talking about bread and butter, and think participation in some meaningless "inner ring" somehow makes up for this? Please :). I'm not -that- stupid. It's worth it to me because I'm doing what I love. Right now, I'm stupid enough to hope that it'll all work out in the end because I'm doing that. I could be wrong, though. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > You see no problem here? Politics are irrelevant in science and engineering but they seem to occupy a lot of time among the humanities. Why? It is not like you said 'this is interesting lets see" you say instead "not a problem." Jim, who is so accommodating to all kinds of ideologies becomes so certain with that single word, "fact". Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Feb 25 21:18:43 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1Q2IhT11793 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:18:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403D4E4D.2F24D5DF@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:39:25 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Drew University:Desktop:20001026} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: still hurt and some salt References: <200402252047.i1PKlSQu004460@palisade.peterson.af.mil> <20040226010245.427@mail.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I still don't quite get the offense. Scottie was upset because Esme said she didn't understand his post. The last and only other time someone accused him of that, he said, it was our Associate Professor, whom he duly ignored. But coming from Esme, Scottie seemed to be saying, the accusation of not making sense really "hurt." So Scottie's assertion that he ignored our Associate Professor (of course -- a phrase I saw reflective of Scottie's attitude more than the Associate Professor) was the insult? I still don't quite get it. It seems that Scottie was talking about himself more than our beloved AP (whom I did assume to be Will Hochman, but when Daniel mentioned John O., well, I see that as being possible too). Now, don't misunderstand -- I'm not arguing with the principle of not attacking someone who's absent and unable to defend himself. That seems fair. Attacks on Chris K. and Will H., for example, would be bad form. I don't think even Scottie would disagree here. Given his temperament, I don't think he'd see such attacks as being worth their time. It's only fun when the person's there to get Upset. That way he gets to prod, prod away... By the way, Scottie -- I don't think Esme failed to understand you because your post was poorly written. I think she may have missed some cultural or literary referents in your post. That happens to me occasionally too. Your world is probably about 25-30 years older than mine, so has quite a bit in it that mine doesn't. I imagine your world is closer to 40-50 years older than Esme. Not to mention that little pond dividing us all... Jim Tim O'Connor wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2004, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil said: > > >I am used to hymns after sermons but I am not a member of this church Tim, > >what is customary now, communion? A Hymn? > > > >By the way, I thought he was talking about John O. but I guess and expect > >Scottie the author to clarify that. I was going to say for the sake of > >truth but bit my lip....not. > > The only thing that comes to my poor, tattered mind is: pogue mahone. > (Perhaps Scottie can supply details.) > > --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 26 20:41:26 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1R1fQ800981 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:41:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040226184828.58738.qmail@web60904.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:48:28 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Flannery O'Connor re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "I have heard about that book Catcher in the Rye and will be glad to see it when it comes." --letter, Sept. 1951 "I certainly enjoyed Catcher in the Rye. Read it up the same day it came. Regina [O'Connor's mother with whom she lived] said I was going to RUIN MY EYES reading all that in one afternoon. I reckon that man owes a lot to Ring Lardner. Anyway he is very good. Regina said would she like to read it and I said, well it was very fine. She said yes but would *she* like to read it, so I said she would have to try it and see. She hasn't yet tried it. She likes books with Frank Buck and a lot of wild animals." --letter, Sept. 1951 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 26 20:41:26 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1R1fQo00976 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:41:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402261634.i1QGY3dk010570@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: still hurt and some salt Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:34:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Jim, a good read. The salt burns but preserves and tastes good too. Daniel I still don't quite get the offense. Scottie was upset because Esme said she didn't understand his post. The last and only other time someone accused him of that, he said, it was our Associate Professor, whom he duly ignored. But coming from Esme, Scottie seemed to be saying, the accusation of not making sense really "hurt." So Scottie's assertion that he ignored our Associate Professor (of course -- a phrase I saw reflective of Scottie's attitude more than the Associate Professor) was the insult? I still don't quite get it. It seems that Scottie was talking about himself more than our beloved AP (whom I did assume to be Will Hochman, but when Daniel mentioned John O., well, I see that as being possible too). Now, don't misunderstand -- I'm not arguing with the principle of not attacking someone who's absent and unable to defend himself. That seems fair. Attacks on Chris K. and Will H., for example, would be bad form. I don't think even Scottie would disagree here. Given his temperament, I don't think he'd see such attacks as being worth their time. It's only fun when the person's there to get Upset. That way he gets to prod, prod away... By the way, Scottie -- I don't think Esme failed to understand you because your post was poorly written. I think she may have missed some cultural or literary referents in your post. That happens to me occasionally too. Your world is probably about 25-30 years older than mine, so has quite a bit in it that mine doesn't. I imagine your world is closer to 40-50 years older than Esme. Not to mention that little pond dividing us all... Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 26 20:41:26 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1R1fQH00970 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:41:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <200402261629.i1QGTPAd009279@palisade.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Beating a Dead Horse...and no where to ride to in particular Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:29:22 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Reaching deep down into his satchel he pulls out a fistful of hope, all he's got and lays it on that fuzzy green carpeted table. The bones are handed over, he rattles them in his hand. A sacrament that is as old as the ages. He mutters the old litany, the old tired but true litany, "baby needs a new pair of shoes." and makes his cast. God forbid, GOD FORBID, that the table is over turned in tumult before the little black dots reveal his destiny. The thought flashes through his mind, "why does the bread always falls butter side down?", He feels the faint coming fast just outside his peripheral vision, anyone to catch that fall? Inner ring? Naive? I guess so Jim, yup pretty sure. Daniel Nonono, Daniel, politics are by no means "irrelevant" in science and engineering. Talk about knowing where your bread is buttered. My father worked as an electrical engineer for about 40 years, until he retired about ten years ago. I remember him telling me, during a discussion about politics, that if he were voting his wallet he'd vote Republican because the big military contracts for engineering firms come from defense spending. The sciences, driven by grant money, have political realities to consider as well -- political realities that determine the type of grants sought, the type of research conducted, and the type of commerically viable findings researchers are always after. And you wonder why people in the sciences and engineering lean right? So let's not be naive about science and engineering, eh? Why do politics occupy time in the humanities? Because the humanities are, specifically, the study of human beings via their creative product. OF COURSE that's always going to have political ramifications. We're political beings. Everything we do has political ramifications -- everything we do is connected, at some level or at one point, with ecomonic, political, and social structures (unless we're a hermit living in a desert somewhere, with no human contact), reflecting them, engaging them, critiquing them, supporting them. By the way, why do you think it's wrong and/or a "problem" to be concerned with politics in the humanities? And why do you think it's somehow contradictory for me to assert "facts"? I can understand multiple ways of thinking without believing them. Not only that, I can understand multiple ways of thinking and incorporate the parts of them I agree with while rejecting the parts I don't. That's what most of us do most of the time. But since you are concerned with "facts" and "truth," why do you disparage them when I present them? It's a fact that most professors aren't tenured faculty, and it's increasingly becoming a fact that most professors in the US aren't even employed full time in a single university. So it's a fact that in the case of most professors, if enough students wrote poor evaluations of that professor one semester, that professor won't be invited back the next one -- there's no need to fire anyone; the prof. only had a one semester contract to begin with. It's also a fact that being a prof. means, increasingly, going into large amounts of debt for a relatively low paying job. My student loan debt will probably wind up being about twice my first year's salary once I'm awarded my Ph.D. And you're talking about bread and butter, and think participation in some meaningless "inner ring" somehow makes up for this? Please :). I'm not -that- stupid. It's worth it to me because I'm doing what I love. Right now, I'm stupid enough to hope that it'll all work out in the end because I'm doing that. I could be wrong, though. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 26 20:41:25 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1R1fPm00964 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:41:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005901c3fc42$23ff97a0$79a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <200402252047.i1PKlSQu004460@palisade.peterson.af.mil> <20040226010245.427@mail.panix.com> Subject: Re: still hurt and some salt Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:25:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... pogue mahone ...(Perhaps Scottie can supply details.) ...' Oh dear, dear, dear. Dan, Tim has just uttered the vilest, most unforgivable imprecation on you, your forebears & descendents that a Gaedlighe speaker is capable of. I'm really shocked - not only at the expression but to see it issue from such a normally benign & gentle source. I couldn't possibly bring myself to translate - even I who usually takes such snide pleasure in 'dirty, easy labels' & in 'messages that are nasty for the sake of being nasty.' No, I really can't do it. Scottie - standing back - B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Feb 26 22:48:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1R3mwM05281 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:48:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:15:52 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: In Defense of the Associate Professor To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <2076406.1077848152102.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, Scottie B, I am not even going to attempt to challenge you intellectually, but I just wanted to point out that I have been looking through the archives and noticed that the Associate Professor responded to just about all of your posts, so your accusations seem a bit unfair. Just my two cents. -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 16:36:12 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1RLaCB12380 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:36:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403F50DE.7010805@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:14:54 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: In Defense of the Associate Professor References: <2076406.1077848152102.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> In-Reply-To: <2076406.1077848152102.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Well, yeah, but the point was that at least one response was, "I don't understand you." Scottie said -he- was ignoring the AP, not the other way around. Jim Michael Allen Nowek wrote: >Hello Everyone, >Scottie B, I am not even going to attempt to challenge you >intellectually, but I just wanted to point out that I have been looking >through the archives and noticed that the Associate Professor responded >to just about all of your posts, so your accusations seem a bit unfair. >Just my two cents. >-Mike N >- >* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message >* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 16:36:12 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1RLaCX12374 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:36:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <403F501B.8080505@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:11:39 -0500 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Beating a Dead Horse...and no where to ride to in particular References: <200402261629.i1QGTPAd009279@palisade.peterson.af.mil> In-Reply-To: <200402261629.i1QGTPAd009279@palisade.peterson.af.mil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ah, Daniel, we all make -those- kinds of decisions when we choose a career. Even computer science and engineering aren't sure ways to go these days, with jobs running overseas as fast as boats can carry them. Pretty dumb not to see that... There's no serious threat to higher ed as a whole from any quarter -- it's always needed. Even humanities studies are necessary for at least the teaching of English and history. Jim Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: >Reaching deep down into his satchel he pulls out a fistful of hope, all he's >got and lays it on that fuzzy green carpeted table. The bones are handed >over, he rattles them in his hand. A sacrament that is as old as the ages. >He mutters the old litany, the old tired but true litany, "baby needs a new >pair of shoes." and makes his cast. God forbid, GOD FORBID, that the table >is over turned in tumult before the little black dots reveal his destiny. >The thought flashes through his mind, "why does the bread always falls >butter side down?", He feels the faint coming fast just outside his >peripheral vision, anyone to catch that fall? Inner ring? Naive? I guess >so Jim, yup pretty sure. >Daniel > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 16:36:13 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1RLaD512390 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040227173104.50762.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:31:04 -0800 (PST) From: David Johnson Subject: Re: Flannery O'Connor re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040226184828.58738.qmail@web60904.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-38790874-1077903064=:49426" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-38790874-1077903064=:49426 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bruce, There is a comment from Flannery O'Connor somewhere (in one of her later letters, I believe) where she also comments on FRANNY AND ZOOEY--in a less than complimentary manner, however. David City Cabin wrote: "I have heard about that book Catcher in the Rye and will be glad to see it when it comes." --letter, Sept. 1951 "I certainly enjoyed Catcher in the Rye. Read it up the same day it came. Regina [O'Connor's mother with whom she lived] said I was going to RUIN MY EYES reading all that in one afternoon. I reckon that man owes a lot to Ring Lardner. Anyway he is very good. Regina said would she like to read it and I said, well it was very fine. She said yes but would *she* like to read it, so I said she would have to try it and see. She hasn't yet tried it. She likes books with Frank Buck and a lot of wild animals." --letter, Sept. 1951 --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail --0-38790874-1077903064=:49426 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Bruce,
There is a comment from Flannery O'Connor somewhere (in one of her later letters, I believe) where she also comments on FRANNY AND ZOOEY--in a less than complimentary manner, however.
David

City Cabin <citycabn@yahoo.com> wrote:
"I have heard about that book Catcher in the Rye and
will be glad to see it when it comes." --letter,
Sept. 1951


"I certainly enjoyed Catcher in the Rye. Read it up
the same day it came. Regina [O'Connor's mother with
whom she lived] said I was going to RUIN MY EYES
reading all that in one afternoon. I reckon that man
owes a lot to Ring Lardner. Anyway he is very good.
Regina said would she like to read it and I said, well
it was very fine. She said yes but would *she* like
to read it, so I said she would have to try it and
see. She hasn't yet tried it. She likes books with
Frank Buck and a lot of wild animals." --letter,
Sept. 1951


--Bruce

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Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail --0-38790874-1077903064=:49426-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 16:36:13 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1RLaDs12391 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040227173637.74207.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:36:37 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: In Defense of the Associate Professor To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <2076406.1077848152102.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I've been out of the fishbowl for three years so I didn't witness what transpired. Whatever did happen, I emphatically miss will's presence on the list. I can only cast my mind back to the old threads of '99 and 2000 which included Scottie and will. Here's one which Scottie might want to re-read: http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.oct00/0038.html And, as a closing aside, my gratitude to tim for putting up with us all these many years. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 19:33:35 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1S0XZ719231 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:33:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:33:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Allen Nowek Subject: Holden and Death To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Message-id: <6694480.1077921200534.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Hello Everyone, I just finished Sanford PinSker's "CITR: Innocence Under Pressure" and a good section of the book dealt with all of the elements in Catcher dealing with death (Allie, mummies...). Pinsker suggests that Holden's obsession with stasis may have to do with an obsession with death rather than life, because life is messy and always changing. Do any of you think that Holden has a death complex? -Mike N - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Feb 27 19:33:35 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1S0XZe19230 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:33:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040227220736.42519.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:07:36 -0800 (PST) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Flannery O'Connor re JDS To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040227173104.50762.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- David Johnson wrote: > Bruce, > There is a comment from Flannery O'Connor somewhere > (in one of her later letters, I believe) where she > also comments on FRANNY AND ZOOEY--in a less than > complimentary manner, however. You're obsolutely right. In an August 4, 1962 letter to "A.", she writes: "Yes that was a good review of Franny and Zooey. I ask myself what you could expect a book called Franny and Zooey to be anyhow. I read two of the [stories] in the New Yorker. Dick Gilman had an even better review of it in Jubilee." I've been using just "Salinger" and "Catcher" in the indicies. I see I need to start this project over and include all book and story titles. I wonder what O'Connor thought of Nine Stories. It's not listed in the selected volume of letters, nor can I find any mention of 8 of the stories by name. For the life of me can't recall the missing 9th. The thing to do is research the Gilman review . Will put that on my to-do list. Thanks, David. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 28 12:12:28 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1SHCS220340 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:12:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4040014C.88B677A7@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:47:40 -0500 From: James Rovira Organization: Drew University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Drew University:Desktop:20001026} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: In Defense of the Associate Professor References: <20040227173637.74207.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Your posts have been great, Bruce, and this last one is among the best. Dittos on the gratitude to Tim, by the way. Jim City Cabin wrote: > > I've been out of the fishbowl for three years so I > didn't witness what transpired. Whatever did happen, > I emphatically miss will's presence on the list. > > I can only cast my mind back to the old threads of '99 > and 2000 which included Scottie and will. Here's one > which Scottie might want to re-read: > > http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.oct00/0038.html > > And, as a closing aside, my gratitude to tim for > putting up with us all these many years. > > --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sat Feb 28 16:27:00 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1SLR0i28021 for bananafish-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:27:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20040228192302.21383.qmail@web41701.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 11:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Esme Four Subject: Re: Holden and Death To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <6694480.1077921200534.JavaMail.nowekm1@southernct.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org For me, when Antolini writes out that quote about the marks of an imature and mature men wanting to die nobly and mature men living for a cause humbly, he's really breaking it down for Holden. And then a few pages l8r he's the only one who touched that dead kid (James Castle) and then Holden is praying to Allie not to let him disappear (like Allie has? or is it Holden not letting Allie disappear?)...anyway, those are the parts for me that say that Holden is confused about death and growing up at the same time. Esmé 4 PS: Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry2Scoootie...just wanted to understand you but now I only understand I hurt you and that wasn't my intention. This just happens to lots of boys I know...please don't worry so much about what I say. Her's a Zen saying my professor says: Life is too serious to be serious about it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Feb 29 16:05:55 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i1TL5tZ19350 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:05:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002101c3feee$df201880$01a57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <20040227173637.74207.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> <4040014C.88B677A7@drew.edu> Subject: Re: In Defense of the Associate Professor Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:06:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In his book, The Brideshead Generation, Humphrey Carpenter suggests that Evelyn Waugh invented - for his private amusement - a mask for himself: that of the country squire, snobbish, plethoric, check-suited & violently reactionary. But as the years went by, the mask clamped on to the face & he eventually turned into his own invention. I wonder if this happens to the rest of us? (Any views, incidentally, about the use of the question mark at the end of that sentence?) Over the last month or two, my own persona on the list has been finally cemented, I imagine, into that of the crabbed, now dementing, Hochman-eating misanthrope. Whereas anyone meeting me in the flesh would be hard pressed to fit that image to the reality confronting him: this vital, light-hearted, scintillating old charmer - ME. The process appears to be quite automatic. As soon as I hear the tinkling murmur of bananafish, the malice takes possession like the first gulp of Dr Jekyll's elixir. What about the rest of you, though? Who lurks behind Jim the Eternally Reasonable, John the Indiarubber Man, Daniel the Fascist Dam Builder, Tim the Lamb of God .... et al? Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH