From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 1 09:23:19 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i31ENJd00209 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:23:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <406BF415.6030602@sinectis.com.ar> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:51:01 +0200 From: "Diego M. Dell'Era" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040122 Debian/1.6-1 X-Accept-Language: es, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: re: a feeble protest against the squalid tide of spam Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "(...) There's such a plethora of junk these days anyway, couldn't we just keep our Nortons & mail washers up to date & hope for the best? Scottie B." No. Adding barriers is not the answer. We must get Free. The Future is Open. Saludos, D. (while I go penguin, as a minor contribution towards Tim's mental health). - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 1 09:23:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i31ENIL00203 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:23:18 -0500 (EST) X-Originating-IP: [63.167.237.65] X-Originating-Email: [lmanningvines@hotmail.com] X-Sender: lmanningvines@hotmail.com From: "L. Manning Vines" To: Subject: RE: The Roots of Language Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:02:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 04:02:24.0410 (UTC) FILETIME=[23AE17A0:01C4179E] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Cecilia writes: << Elohim is much older than Yahweh, dating back to when the tribes of Israel believed in more than one god. Later, the words became interchangeable, but Elohim usually refers to the gods, or the angels perhaps. >> That Elohim is older and the result of polytheistic Israelites (or pre-Israelite Semites) has been conjectured but remains conjectural. Elohim (or el or eloh) has more cognates in the Semitic languages, so it is seem likely that it is older, or at least was commoner earlier, but YHWH is damn old too, and we haven't got reliable or even very good ideas concerning the dates or precise origins of either. The conjecture that the plural-form of elohim is the relic of a polytheistic origin is more dubious since it is not unique amongst Hebrew nouns for its plural form. As I mentioned before, there are quite a few Hebrew nouns that are morphologically plural but grammatically singular. The nominal plurality of elohim seems to be the result of a shift in the language's conception of a whole class of nouns, not simply a polytheistic religious origin. In Hebrew texts, Biblical and extra-Biblical, elohim does sometimes refer, as you say, to gods (plural) or angels, sometimes even to great men, but it is not true that this is usually the case. This usage is substantially rarer than the usage in reference to the (singular) God of Israel. And neither is it quite clear that the names are interchangeable. Exodus perhaps suggests that YHWH is a more intimate name, and in any case they very often, perhaps usually, come together. Most English translations render YHWH everywhere or almost everywhere as LORD (usually in capitals), which can give you an idea of their occurrences uses without learning Hebrew. Very often we find phrases that include the words "LORD God," which render "YHWH elohim." -Robbie - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 1 12:47:14 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i31HlEW10411 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:47:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:38:50 -0500 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: a feeble protest against the squalid tide of spam Message-ID: <20040401173850.GB19826@panix.com> References: <406BF415.6030602@sinectis.com.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <406BF415.6030602@sinectis.com.ar> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Thu, Apr 01, 2004 at 12:51:01PM +0200, Diego M. Dell'Era wrote: > The Future is Open. > > Saludos, > D. > > (while I go penguin, as a minor contribution towards Tim's > mental health). At last, another penguin user here! Debian, I'll bet ... eh? Or Knoppix? --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 17:27:16 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37LRGM23303 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040407211901.9234.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:19:01 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: Golden Oldie from April 1997 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org There appears to be no traffic on the list, so I've been in the Archives. The post I've enjoyed most was a response to a thread about JDS and possible computer use. It follows between quotes: "I sense a reprise of Apple's "What Do You Have on Your Powerbook?" campaign: * lists of medicine cabinet contents * lists of contents of pockets of Bessie's OTHER housedress * forty drafts of second novel * notes for third novel * thirty revised final drafts of second novel * nine more stories * lists of unlisted phone numbers for all my friends * first draft of third novel * outlines for fourth, fifth, and sixth novels * copy of Pretty Good Privacy * last five years' worth of letters, encrypted * fourteen koans, with answers * seven koans, without answers * working draft of sixth novel * contract with Orchides Press for 1999 publication of "Hapworth," with requests to delay until after the millenium * record of correspondance with Thomas Pynchon * bibliography of the complete works of L. Manning Vines (or Hinds) -- J.D. Salinger, reclusive writer and Powerbook owner OK, I guess I'm silly today. It must be the spring air and a day of exercise and sun that have made me fall into this madness. --tim o'connor" I don't know how the weather is today in NY; it's absolutely beautiful here in SF. During an al fresco lunch, I overheard a woman say: "It's a mortal sin to be inside today." Wishing you all such weather. --Back Inside Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 18:03:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37M32I24783 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002d01c41cea$65fe34e0$0101a8c0@Monster> From: "Kenneth" To: References: <20040407211901.9234.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:50:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [141.153.213.131] at Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:50:52 -0500 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Be silly. I love the post. My favorites: lists of medicine cabinet contents copy of Pretty Good Privacy last five years' worth of letters, encrypted fourteen koans, with answers seven koans, without answers record of correspondance with Thomas Pynchon (see medicine cabinet contents) ----- Original Message ----- From: "City Cabin" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: Golden Oldie from April 1997 > There appears to be no traffic on the list, so I've > been in the Archives. > > The post I've enjoyed most was a response to a thread > about JDS and possible computer use. > > It follows between quotes: > > > "I sense a reprise of Apple's "What Do You Have on > Your Powerbook?" > campaign: > > * lists of medicine cabinet contents > * lists of contents of pockets of Bessie's > OTHER housedress > * forty drafts of second novel > * notes for third novel > * thirty revised final drafts of second novel > * nine more stories > * lists of unlisted phone numbers for all my > friends > * first draft of third novel > * outlines for fourth, fifth, and sixth novels > * copy of Pretty Good Privacy > * last five years' worth of letters, encrypted > * fourteen koans, with answers > * seven koans, without answers > * working draft of sixth novel > * contract with Orchides Press for 1999 > publication > of "Hapworth," with requests to delay until > after > the millenium > * record of correspondance with Thomas Pynchon > * bibliography of the complete works of L. > Manning Vines > (or Hinds) > > -- J.D. Salinger, reclusive writer and > Powerbook owner > > OK, I guess I'm silly today. It must be the spring air > and a day of > exercise and sun that have made me fall into this > madness. > > --tim o'connor" > > > I don't know how the weather is today in NY; it's > absolutely beautiful here in SF. During an al fresco > lunch, I overheard a woman say: "It's a mortal sin to > be inside today." > > Wishing you all such weather. > > --Back Inside Bruce > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 18:55:16 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37MtGr27162 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:54:40 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Message-ID: <20040407225440.GC7519@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org OK, here I demonstrate that I am most definitely no Anglophone. I have been reading my usual crazed collection of books that are unrelated to each other. Such is my hyperlexia (!) in action. I read RATS, which is something like Thoreau's year spent in his cabin that led to "Walden," except that our author spends about a year in an alley (which I actually know quite well, having worked there for a long time), observing the behavior of rats at night. That has nothing to do with this list but I feel compelled to mention it. Then I read THE CURIOUS INCIDENT OF THE DOG IN THE NIGHT-TIME, by Mark Haddon, which fortunately has no blurbs that compare it to Catcher. It's about a series of incidents seen through the consciousness of an autistic young boy. It is really, really good. Oddly enough, there is actually some comparison with Catcher in the sense of the narrator making a trip from country to city, though this narrator is autistic; however, one could argue that there are quite a few dovetails with Salinger. But I simply mention it in passing. Read it and enjoy. Finally, to the crux of this message. I've been reading Virginia Woolf's diaries. I have some questions for those of you who might have experience with matters British. In Woolf's diaries, there are many mentions of people in her circle. But two details nag at me. One is the selection of proper names of people she encountered (more on that in a moment), and the other is the complication of surnames. On people she encountered: there are some names I just don't know, and wonder how they are pronounced. (My guesses follow in parentheses.) Llewelyn ("Lew-ellen"?) Lytton ("Lit-ton"?) Strachey (I cannot even guess.) Stephen (A surname; "Steff-en"? or "Stee-ven"?) On surnames: Many of the people Woolf encountered have elaborately hyphenated surnames, such as: Scott-Chad Warre-Cornish Arnold-Foster Kay-Shuttleworth Pethick-Lawrence That is just a sample. What I wonder is: what happens when one hyphenated name marries another hyphenate? Do we ever end up with a name like: Frederick Wentworth Farnestock Strachan-Lytton Smith-Shuttlecock ? (I live in another galaxy from that, where hyphenated names are quite common when a marriage occurs, and the couple either becomes a "Smith-Jones" or, at the wildest, the couple constructs an artificial surname based on a combination of their surnames. There too are the issues of how two politically correct people identify themselves. I don't know the answer to that one, either.) Anyway ... if anyone is familiar with the (so-called) Bloomsbury people and their names, I would be curious about the pronounciation and the hyphenation (especially where it came from and how it proceeded in successive generations). --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 18:55:16 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37MtGe27161 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:16:17 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Bruce's Golden Oldie Message-ID: <20040407221617.GB7519@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org First: a fact: The list has been terribly quiet of late. We had about 80% of the list tied up with get-rich-quick schemes; 10% for enlargement of body parts; 5% Nigerian fraud; and 5% miscellaneous. And Bruce's message. Second: I was taken aback by Bruce's posting of that 1997 message. It was vaguely pleasant to read, as if I were having an out-of-body experience, finding my own name at bottom. I have utterly no memory of having written the thing. Third: I hope this stimulates conversation, or else I'll have to send out one of those "get-conversation-going" notes, as any good host or hostess would do to stir up the pot. Cheers. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 19:22:26 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37NMQ428538 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404072315.i37NFE55004164@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 23:15:13 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I've been reading an odd mix myself these past couple of weeks. I just finished the last available volume of a series that Mike recommended so I started casting about for something to read. I've read a book about Islam (non fiction), a short story Collection by Ray Bradbury, a book about Kit Carson, a science fiction classic called Integral Tree, Dostoyevsky's Demons (The Possessed), and now a re-reading of Steinbeck's East of Eden and it's a slow reading because the pages keep falling out of my 1967 copy. I am now suspecting that I may be suffering from hyperlexia also. Daniel I have been reading my usual crazed collection of books that are unrelated to each other. Such is my hyperlexia (!) in action. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 19:22:26 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i37NMQ428539 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404072304.i37N4mTO001586@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 23:04:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org One more needed, List of possible Trespassers to look out for. (culled from Bananafish archives) So don't sin today Bruce but caution on your non-inside choices (Cornish Area). Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 20:48:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i380mIl02578 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:48:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [193.198.132.179] X-Originating-Email: [anabuneta@hotmail.com] X-Sender: anabuneta@hotmail.com From: "ana" To: References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> Subject: Re: More about translation Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:52:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2004 23:54:31.0537 (UTC) FILETIME=[ABA60610:01C41CFB] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org :)) > And > that's in a language that I understand, so you can imagine what it's > like in Serbo-Croatian! :))) funny. I guess Serbo/Croatian is example for something that can't be worst! :) it is a measure... and then, serbo-croatian doesn't even exist!!! :)) so it is imaginary measure :) btw, never heard of JC??!! Bo! and I looked for his book on Croatian, and didn't find anything. don't know if Serbs translated some of his books. ><><>< ab http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002winter/carroll.shtml Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 20:48:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i380mIf02577 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040407233908.10171.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404072304.i37N4mTO001586@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > One more needed, > List of possible Trespassers to look out for. > (culled from Bananafish > archives) Very good! > So don't sin today Bruce but caution on your > non-inside choices (Cornish > Area). Okay, I confess. I've been to Cornish. A dozen or so years ago, my wife and I drove from her father's house in northern Mass.; it was 2 plus hours. We visited St. Gauden's estate, saw the covered bridge, and drove around the hills of Cornish. I had vague directions to HIS home, but had no intention of making a frontal attack. I wanted to get to Fitch's mailbox which is close to JD's land. As we were approaching the mailbox, in a moderate rain, on a narrow barely paved road, we were nearly run off the surface by a fast-approaching Jeep-like vehicle commandeered by an elderly guy with white hair, a substantial nose, and Buddha ears. My wife saw the driver; I didn't. I was doing my damnest to avoid a collision and the ditch. She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 21:06:16 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3816Gv03613 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:04:29 -0500 Message-Id: <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Mar 31, 2004, kate.beown@wanadoo.fr said: >Thanks, Elvis. >I start tomorrow (Auster's book is also released tomorrow, by the way). I >feel sick. I'll bet you knocked them out. How do you like the job so far? And what kind of job are you doing? We who have followed your adventures in Paris are intrigued.... Did you get the new Paul Auster? --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 7 21:06:16 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3816Gq03607 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:01:18 -0500 Message-Id: <20040408020118.25784@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20040407233908.10171.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040407233908.10171.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Apr 7, 2004, citycabn@yahoo.com said: >Okay, I confess. I've been to Cornish. A dozen or so >years ago, my wife and I drove from her father's house >in northern Mass.; it was 2 plus hours. We visited >St. Gauden's estate, saw the covered bridge, and drove >around the hills of Cornish. I had vague directions >to HIS home, but had no intention of making a frontal >attack. I wanted to get to Fitch's mailbox which is >close to JD's land. As we were approaching the >mailbox, in a moderate rain, on a narrow barely paved >road, we were nearly run off the surface by a >fast-approaching Jeep-like vehicle commandeered by an >elderly guy with white hair, a substantial nose, and >Buddha ears. My wife saw the driver; I didn't. I was >doing my damnest to avoid a collision and the ditch. > >She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. Bruce, I have to say I side with your wife. My experiences have been with his vintage cream-colored BMW (very vintage) twice, and his four- wheel-drive vehicle (a Land Rover, as I recall). No indication of him riding around -- as the character does in Esme -- with the windshield down, "combat-style," to show his status. And he is from all reports (mine and those of others) an utterly maniacal driver. God only knows how he gets his driver's license renewed! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 01:38:25 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i385cPw17045 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040408030753.86043.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: Re: Reading Virginia Woolf & others To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040407225440.GC7519@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > > On people she encountered: there are some names I just don't know, and > wonder how they are pronounced. (My guesses follow in parentheses.) > > Llewelyn ("Lew-ellen"?) yes. > Lytton ("Lit-ton"?) > Strachey (I cannot even guess.) You know, this is one of these that I've never taken the time to research; however, Lytton Strachey is one of those guys with two last names, I know that. Typical custom. When you can't hyphenate, give your firstborn your maiden name. I think you're right with the Lytton, but I think Strachey is Stra-kee. Don't quote me on that, however. It's based on flawed recollection of a Virginia Woolf course I took as an undergraduate. > Stephen (A surname; "Steff-en"? or "Stee-ven"?) It's Stee-ven. Virginia's father was quite well-known. > That is just a sample. What I wonder is: what happens when one > hyphenated name marries another hyphenate? Do we ever end up with a > name like: > > Frederick Wentworth Farnestock Strachan-Lytton Smith-Shuttlecock Ha. No, I think it follows the normal convention, where the wife takes the husband's hyphenated name and drops her own. The reason this arose, I believe, had something to do with inheritance, where the wife married someone less moneyed than she, but who had a better name. What better way to make the less-known name come down through history than to hyphenate? Putting two houses together in a more or less permanent fashion. Best, Cecilia. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 09:36:45 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Dajf09094 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c501c41d37$133a2140$6ea57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <20040408030753.86043.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:59:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... Stra-kee. Don't quote me on that, however ...' No, dahlin', we won't. STRAY - chay. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:59 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hpxr20824 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:09:19 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:09:19 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40756B09.CC38.0648.000] Content-Identifier: 0749D40756B1F007 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40756B09.CC38.0648.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 08:09:19 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, tim@roughdraft.org Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org tim, i recently came upon a stash of salinger's old drivers licenses. i will give them to you for top dollar. why he kept them? who knows. the interesting question is, where he was keeping them. -mike >>> tim@roughdraft.org 04/07/04 06:06PM >>> On Wed, Apr 7, 2004, citycabn@yahoo.com said: >Okay, I confess. I've been to Cornish. A dozen or so >years ago, my wife and I drove from her father's house >in northern Mass.; it was 2 plus hours. We visited >St. Gauden's estate, saw the covered bridge, and drove >around the hills of Cornish. I had vague directions >to HIS home, but had no intention of making a frontal >attack. I wanted to get to Fitch's mailbox which is >close to JD's land. As we were approaching the >mailbox, in a moderate rain, on a narrow barely paved >road, we were nearly run off the surface by a >fast-approaching Jeep-like vehicle commandeered by an >elderly guy with white hair, a substantial nose, and >Buddha ears. My wife saw the driver; I didn't. I was >doing my damnest to avoid a collision and the ditch. > >She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. Bruce, I have to say I side with your wife. My experiences have been with his vintage cream-colored BMW (very vintage) twice, and his four- wheel-drive vehicle (a Land Rover, as I recall). No indication of him riding around -- as the character does in Esme -- with the windshield down, "combat-style," to show his status. And he is from all reports (mine and those of others) an utterly maniacal driver. God only knows how he gets his driver's license renewed! --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:58 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hpwr20806 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:01:01 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:01:01 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40756929.CC38.051E.000] Content-Identifier: 067B84075692D006 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40756929.CC38.051E.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 08:01:01 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, tim@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org yesterday, i read a "hellboy" comic. i had no idea it was so funny. i laughed out loud twice. -mike >>> tim@roughdraft.org 04/07/04 03:56PM >>> OK, here I demonstrate that I am most definitely no Anglophone. I have been reading my usual crazed collection of books that are unrelated to each other. Such is my hyperlexia (!) in action. I read RATS, which is something like Thoreau's year spent in his cabin that led to "Walden," except that our author spends about a year in an alley (which I actually know quite well, having worked there for a long time), observing the behavior of rats at night. That has nothing to do with this list but I feel compelled to mention it. Then I read THE CURIOUS INCIDENT OF THE DOG IN THE NIGHT-TIME, by Mark Haddon, which fortunately has no blurbs that compare it to Catcher. It's about a series of incidents seen through the consciousness of an autistic young boy. It is really, really good. Oddly enough, there is actually some comparison with Catcher in the sense of the narrator making a trip from country to city, though this narrator is autistic; however, one could argue that there are quite a few dovetails with Salinger. But I simply mention it in passing. Read it and enjoy. Finally, to the crux of this message. I've been reading Virginia Woolf's diaries. I have some questions for those of you who might have experience with matters British. In Woolf's diaries, there are many mentions of people in her circle. But two details nag at me. One is the selection of proper names of people she encountered (more on that in a moment), and the other is the complication of surnames. On people she encountered: there are some names I just don't know, and wonder how they are pronounced. (My guesses follow in parentheses.) Llewelyn ("Lew-ellen"?) Lytton ("Lit-ton"?) Strachey (I cannot even guess.) Stephen (A surname; "Steff-en"? or "Stee-ven"?) On surnames: Many of the people Woolf encountered have elaborately hyphenated surnames, such as: Scott-Chad Warre-Cornish Arnold-Foster Kay-Shuttleworth Pethick-Lawrence That is just a sample. What I wonder is: what happens when one hyphenated name marries another hyphenate? Do we ever end up with a name like: Frederick Wentworth Farnestock Strachan-Lytton Smith-Shuttlecock ? (I live in another galaxy from that, where hyphenated names are quite common when a marriage occurs, and the couple either becomes a "Smith-Jones" or, at the wildest, the couple constructs an artificial surname based on a combination of their surnames. There too are the issues of how two politically correct people identify themselves. I don't know the answer to that one, either.) Anyway ... if anyone is familiar with the (so-called) Bloomsbury people and their names, I would be curious about the pronounciation and the hyphenation (especially where it came from and how it proceeded in successive generations). --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:59 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hpxh20823 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:04:39 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:04:39 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 407569FB.CC38.05A7.000] Content-Identifier: 06EE740756A07001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <407569FB.CC38.05A7.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 08:04:39 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, citycabn@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org he was trying to kill you softly with his jeep. it was j. d. -mike >>> citycabn@yahoo.com 04/07/04 05:48PM >>> --- Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > One more needed, > List of possible Trespassers to look out for. > (culled from Bananafish > archives) Very good! > So don't sin today Bruce but caution on your > non-inside choices (Cornish > Area). Okay, I confess. I've been to Cornish. A dozen or so years ago, my wife and I drove from her father's house in northern Mass.; it was 2 plus hours. We visited St. Gauden's estate, saw the covered bridge, and drove around the hills of Cornish. I had vague directions to HIS home, but had no intention of making a frontal attack. I wanted to get to Fitch's mailbox which is close to JD's land. As we were approaching the mailbox, in a moderate rain, on a narrow barely paved road, we were nearly run off the surface by a fast-approaching Jeep-like vehicle commandeered by an elderly guy with white hair, a substantial nose, and Buddha ears. My wife saw the driver; I didn't. I was doing my damnest to avoid a collision and the ditch. She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:59 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hpx420817 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:03:06 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 08:03:06 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 407569A1.CC38.0570.000] Content-Identifier: 06AD9407569AA005 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <407569A1.CC38.0570.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 08:03:06 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org there's no shame in saying you like something that stephen king wrote. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/07/04 04:23PM >>> I've been reading an odd mix myself these past couple of weeks. I just finished the last available volume of a series that Mike recommended so I started casting about for something to read. I've read a book about Islam (non fiction), a short story Collection by Ray Bradbury, a book about Kit Carson, a science fiction classic called Integral Tree, Dostoyevsky's Demons (The Possessed), and now a re-reading of Steinbeck's East of Eden and it's a slow reading because the pages keep falling out of my 1967 copy. I am now suspecting that I may be suffering from hyperlexia also. Daniel I have been reading my usual crazed collection of books that are unrelated to each other. Such is my hyperlexia (!) in action. --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:58 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38HpwZ20800 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4075593C.8000506@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:53:00 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Reading Virginia Woolf & others References: <20040408030753.86043.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> <00c501c41d37$133a2140$6ea57dc2@j8l6n9> In-Reply-To: <00c501c41d37$133a2140$6ea57dc2@j8l6n9> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I wouldn't even attempt, as an American. Didn't stay in England long enough to learn the language... Jim Scottie Bowman wrote: > '... Stra-kee. Don't quote me on that, however ...' > > No, dahlin', we won't. > > STRAY - chay. > > Scottie B. > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:52:00 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hq0S20835 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404081627.i38GRBvC004443@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: RE: Reading Virginia Woolf & others Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:27:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org SHHHHHHH! Mike. To damm quick to cast your pearls before swine. Daniel there's no shame in saying you like something that stephen king wrote. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/07/04 04:23PM >>> I've been reading an odd mix myself these past couple of weeks. I just finished the last available volume of a series that Mike recommended so I started casting about for something to read. I've read a book about Islam (non fiction), a short story Collection by Ray Bradbury, a book about Kit Carson, a science fiction classic called Integral Tree, Dostoyevsky's Demons (The Possessed), and now a re-reading of Steinbeck's East of Eden and it's a slow reading because the pages keep falling out of my 1967 copy. I am now suspecting that I may be suffering from hyperlexia also. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:59 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Hpxd20830 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40757D97.7060304@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:28:07 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Hannah and Martin for NYC bananafishers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I'm going to see this performance of "Hannah and Martin" next Friday night with a few other students from my university: Manhattan Ensemble Theater, 5 Mercer Street [@ Broome], on Friday evening, April 16, at 8 pm. Here's a short description: The leads for this play about the relationship between Hannah Arendt and Martin Heidegger are two distinguished actors, Melissa Friedman and David Strathairn. The play is receiving good reviews. I have seen it and found it compelling. The playwright, Kate Fodor, daughter of philosopher Jerry Fodor of Rutgers, presents the philosophical ideas of Arendt and Heidegger without becoming pedantic. Here, we see "our stuff" effectively put on stage. "Hannah and Martin" explores issues of love, truth, morality, history, and loyalty. Anyone in the area is welcome to come too...it'd be cool. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 13:51:57 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38HpvH20794 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:50:45 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: More about translation References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I know Jonathan Carroll is pretty widely published in Europe -- seems like he's most popular in Poland. He lives in Vienna and has for the last 20 years, but I don't know the extent of his exposure to the rest of Central Europe. Anyway, according to this site: http://www.shaav.com/professional/linguistics/serbocroation.html someone's opinion of the existence of a serbo-croatian language depends upon whether they are Serbian or Croatian: > The general attitude of Croats is that Croatian (Stokavian - > Ijekavian) and Serbian (Stokavian - Ekavian) are completely autonomous > languages and as such, Croats try to emphasize the differences. Serbs > however, are trying to down play those differences, taking the > position that there is only one language with several variants. > Regardless, Croats appear to be the most vehement in questions of > language, mainly because of the perception that Serbian had been > imposed upon them. Currently, a movement to label all Serbian words > and remove them from Croatian use is underway. And a Google search of "serbo-croatian" yields 205,000 hits: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=serbo-croatian&btnG=Search So while you may disagree with Mr. Carroll, he wasn't speaking ignorantly -- just from a different point of view. I couldn't find anything about translations of Carroll into Serbian or Croatian either, though. Jim ana wrote: >:)) > > > >>And > that's in a language that I understand, so you can imagine what it's >>like in Serbo-Croatian! >> >> > >:))) >funny. I guess Serbo/Croatian is example for something that can't be worst! >:) >it is a measure... >and then, serbo-croatian doesn't even exist!!! :)) so it is imaginary >measure :) >btw, never heard of JC??!! Bo! >and I looked for his book on Croatian, and didn't find anything. >don't know if Serbs translated some of his books. > > >ab > >http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002winter/carroll.shtml > >Jim > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:16:13 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KGDB28494 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040408182147.18411.qmail@web60903.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:21:47 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040408020118.25784@mail.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > > >She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. > > Bruce, I have to say I side with your wife. I should have let him hit us! Instead of asking for the name of his insurance company, I could have asked for a signed Catcher. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:16:14 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KGEf28500 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404082009.i38K9XCf007767@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Hannah and Martin for NYC bananafishers Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:09:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Mike, which issue of Hellboy was that? Daniel I'm going to see this performance of "Hannah and Martin" next Friday night with a few other students from my university: Manhattan Ensemble Theater, 5 Mercer Street [@ Broome], on Friday evening, April 16, at 8 pm. Here's a short description: The leads for this play about the relationship between Hannah Arendt and Martin Heidegger are two distinguished actors, Melissa Friedman and David Strathairn. The play is receiving good reviews. I have seen it and found it compelling. The playwright, Kate Fodor, daughter of philosopher Jerry Fodor of Rutgers, presents the philosophical ideas of Arendt and Heidegger without becoming pedantic. Here, we see "our stuff" effectively put on stage. "Hannah and Martin" explores issues of love, truth, morality, history, and loyalty. Anyone in the area is welcome to come too...it'd be cool. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:16:13 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KGD028487 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040408180805.55695.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:08:05 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040407233908.10171.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org > We visited > St. Gauden's estate, saw the covered bridge, For the curious, here's a link re the bridge: http://www.state.nh.us/nhdhr/bridges/p39.html And one for the estate of the American sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens: http://www.sgnhs.org/saga.html I thought at one point in the past I had written an extensive post re my trip to Cornish, but in checking the Archives I find it not to be so. (Perhaps it was an offlist babble.) --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:16:14 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KGEu28495 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie_Aron?= To: References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:50:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I'm a lawyer (or is the correct word "attorney-at-law"?). My boss is apparently crazy: he yells all the time (not at me, but at his wife, who is also a lawyer in this office, at people on the phone...), and I've been told that usually people who had my job before me did quit or were fired very quickly. Nice, isn't it!!! I'm going to buy my Paul Auster, maybe this week-end. What do you think of it? Valérie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim O'Connor" To: "bananafish" Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 4:04 AM Subject: Re: No longer unemployed > On Wed, Mar 31, 2004, kate.beown@wanadoo.fr said: > > >Thanks, Elvis. > >I start tomorrow (Auster's book is also released tomorrow, by the way). I > >feel sick. > > I'll bet you knocked them out. How do you like the job so far? And what > kind of job are you doing? We who have followed your adventures in Paris > are intrigued.... > > Did you get the new Paul Auster? > > --tim > > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:55:51 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KtpB00560 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:55:51 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 13:30:39 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 13:30:39 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4075B657.CC38.19E6.000] Content-Identifier: 0210A4075B66F00C Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4075B657.CC38.19E6.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 13:30:39 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Hannah and Martin for NYC bananafishers Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org http://www.teen-books.com/Hellboy_Right_Hand_of_Doom_1569714894.html >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/08/04 01:17PM >>> Mike, which issue of Hellboy was that? Daniel I'm going to see this performance of "Hannah and Martin" next Friday night with a few other students from my university: Manhattan Ensemble Theater, 5 Mercer Street [@ Broome], on Friday evening, April 16, at 8 pm. Here's a short description: The leads for this play about the relationship between Hannah Arendt and Martin Heidegger are two distinguished actors, Melissa Friedman and David Strathairn. The play is receiving good reviews. I have seen it and found it compelling. The playwright, Kate Fodor, daughter of philosopher Jerry Fodor of Rutgers, presents the philosophical ideas of Arendt and Heidegger without becoming pedantic. Here, we see "our stuff" effectively put on stage. "Hannah and Martin" explores issues of love, truth, morality, history, and loyalty. Anyone in the area is welcome to come too...it'd be cool. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:55:51 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38KtpA00564 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:55:51 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 13:35:29 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 08 Apr 2004 13:35:29 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4075B783.CC38.1AB5.000] Content-Identifier: 02A304075B791001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4075B783.CC38.1AB5.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 08 Apr 2004 13:35:29 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, citycabn@yahoo.com Subject: RE: Golden Oldie from April 1997 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The movie "Misery" comes to mind... Salinger's number one fan, Bruce, rescues the author from the scene of a car accident. The former nurse takes care of him in his remote house, but becomes irate when he discovers that the author hasn't written anything since 1965. Bruce keeps Salinger prisoner while forcing him to write a book that brings Seymour Glass back to life. He has a lot of ways to spur him on. One is a needle. Another is an ax. And if they don't work, he can get really nasty... haha. Bruce is a male nurse. -mike >>> citycabn@yahoo.com 04/08/04 01:17PM >>> --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > > > >She *swears* it was JD; I still have my doubts. > > Bruce, I have to say I side with your wife. I should have let him hit us! Instead of asking for the name of his insurance company, I could have asked for a signed Catcher. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:55:53 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Ktrb00570 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:53:34 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Message-ID: <20040408205333.GA29460@panix.com> References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Thu, Apr 08, 2004 at 09:50:12PM +0200, Valérie Aron wrote: > I'm a lawyer (or is the correct word "attorney-at-law"?). Lawyer=when you are angry at them. Attorney=when you want to be dignified. > My boss is apparently crazy: he yells all the time (not at me, but at his > wife, who is also a lawyer in this office, at people on the phone...), In working, one always has at least a couple of crazy bosses. You are only getting to the stage the rest of us have experienced before. > I've been told that usually people who had my job before me did quit or were > fired very quickly. Nice, isn't it!!! Just like working in magazine publishing! I'm sure others here can chime in with their own horror stories. > I'm going to buy my Paul Auster, maybe this week-end. What do you think of > it? It is like a very small, very shiny gem. I like it a lot ... I think it had rather less of his usual coincidences. But I'm an admirer of his work pretty much consistently.... Cheers, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 8 16:55:50 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i38Kto100552 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 16:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:24:52 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: No longer unemployed References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> In-Reply-To: <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org My ex wife used to work in a law office. Buy your books before you find you need to change jobs :) Jim Valérie Aron wrote: >I'm a lawyer (or is the correct word "attorney-at-law"?). >My boss is apparently crazy: he yells all the time (not at me, but at his >wife, who is also a lawyer in this office, at people on the phone...), and >I've been told that usually people who had my job before me did quit or were >fired very quickly. Nice, isn't it!!! > >I'm going to buy my Paul Auster, maybe this week-end. What do you think of >it? > >Valérie > > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 14 17:13:14 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3ELDEU09033 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040413181123.13019.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: Oldie To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I was writing offlist to a friend, muttering re how to read Salinger, and afterwards thought of this old post of mine, which I now inflict upon *you* (should you be missing the sound of bananafish traffic these days): http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.apr00/0104.html --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 14 17:13:15 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3ELDF909038 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404141721.i3EHLTox024000@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: City of Glass Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:21:25 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Tim, I just ran across an ad for a graphic novel that St Martin's Press is putting out in the next few months that I thought you would be interested in; Paul Auster's City of Glass, soft cover, B&W, 144 pages, $14. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41YL27398 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <407DEFE3.7070706@drew.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:13:55 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Oldie References: <20040413181123.13019.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040413181123.13019.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Good post, then and now. I agree it's a mistake to look for a "key" to unlocking Salinger's fiction (or any fiction), since most writers draw from a diversity of traditions. I'm facing this a bit as I study William Blake. Everyone has a take on him, and most everyone has a good point to make, but none of them tell the whole story. It's not just about Berkeley's idealism or atheism or the occult or Christianity. I prefer to see philosophies in relationship to literature as something like different scratch tests performed on rocks. Each one reveals different facets or components of the literature, but even all these individual components fall short of the entire integrated piece. Still, I get the impression sometimes that his "other reading" was guided by some primary readings in Eastern texts. Jim City Cabin wrote: >I was writing offlist to a friend, muttering re how to >read Salinger, and afterwards thought of this old post >of mine, which I now inflict upon *you* (should you be >missing the sound of bananafish traffic these days): > > > >http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.apr00/0104.html > > >--Bruce > > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:34 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41Yw27393 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404142255.i3EMtlNN013340@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:55:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Key schmee. Bananas not apples Bruce, for ol' Seymour. The poet soaring on the wings of his angst and his Madhava-ian "insipent madness" comes crashing down when the little curlew sandpiper becomes too fat, you know; drag greater than lift. It seems too many think that it takes this "insipent madness" and tossy turvy balderdash to remain in flight and fleet of feather. It only takes imagination, only "insipent" imagination free of pharmaceutical crutches or coyote vision quest guides. I guess that original Bfish had no imagination, I mean - a simple little hole kicked Seymour's ass. Some of the best singing comes from caged Canaries but don't leave that door open because it is not a "forget I have feathers song" either. Seymour was smart and it seems (if you believe Buddy) he had imagination, but only a lame one allowing him to hobble around. Seymour didn't fail as a poet (if Buddy is telling the truth) and that may have been his undoing. Success is the enemy of "insipent madness" and angst. And Seymour the crutch kicked himself away leaving Buddy to stumble around as the failed poet. I always suspected academia as being the failed poet junkyard. Real poets wander around looking for salvageable heaps to remake into sweet hotrods. Seymour had a choice; Muriel (and I dare add, the lesser Glasses) or his "insipent madness". He was just to damm weak, he chose his precious exalting "insipent madness". Too bad. This puts into mind something I recently read by Steinbeck; "It wasn't very long until all the land in the barren hills near king City and San Ardo were taken up, and ragged families were scattered through the hills, trying their best to scratch a living from the flinty soil. They and the coyotes lived clever, despairing, submarginal lives. They landed with no money, no equipment, no tools, no credit, and particularly with no knowledge of the new country and no technique for using it. I don't know whether it was divine stupidity or a great faith that let them do it. Surely such venture is nearly gone from the world. And the families did survive and grow. They had a tool or weapon that is also nearly gone, or perhaps it is only dormant for a while. It is argued that because they believed thoroughly in a just, moral god they could put their faith there and let the smaller securities take care of themselves. But I think that because they trusted in themselves and respected themselves as individuals, because they knew beyond doubt that they were valuable and potentially moral units--because of this they could give God their own courage and dignity and then receive it back. Such things have disappeared perhaps because men do not trust themselves any more, when that happens there is nothing left except perhaps to find some strong sure man , even they though they may be wrong, and to dangle from his coat tails." Seymour lost that tool or it went dormant and he wallowed in his precious despair and climaxed with the pull of the trigger. And then Franny, Zooey, buddy etc tumbled off his coat tails. Maybe one day Salinger will let buddy show us those coat tails behind that same pain of glass that keeps all you "New Yorkers" from pawing the Mummies in the Toons. Daniel I was writing offlist to a friend, muttering re how to read Salinger, and afterwards thought of this old post of mine, which I now inflict upon *you* (should you be missing the sound of bananafish traffic these days): http://www.roughdraft.org/JDS/JDS.ocon.apr00/0104.html --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41Yh27390 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404142231.i3EMVfjE004251@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: City of Glass Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:31:40 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org No mike, the title of the one I am interested in is: how not to pee on YOUR belt. I already know how not to pee on my belt. Pay attention. No I haven't seen that copy of Hellboy, they had some other issues though. I am not a super hero fan so we'll see. I did run across a series called LONE, read the reviews, does it sound vaguely familiar? http://www.darkhorse.com/search/search.php?frompage=userinput&sstring=lone Daniel PS sorry Mike. yes, daniel, i just recently ran across that graphic novel you were hoping to read and learn from: how not to pee on your belt. have you tried the hellboy yet daniel? i think you will be pleasantly surprised, as i was. -mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:33 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41Xx27375 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [193.198.146.22] X-Originating-Email: [anabuneta@hotmail.com] X-Sender: anabuneta@hotmail.com From: "ana" To: "BananaFish" Cc: , References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> Subject: Re: More about translation Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 23:33:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C42278.E8256040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Apr 2004 21:34:00.0673 (UTC) FILETIME=[335A8510:01C42268] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C42278.E8256040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > So while you may disagree with Mr. Carroll, he wasn't speaking=20 > ignorantly -- just from a different point of view and you know that because you asked him? :) or it is so hard to believe = that some American (writer) who lives in Austria for 28 years doesn't = know that serbo-croatian doesn't exist (anymore)? I doubt that Carroll = has opinion on this subject, and that's ok... I don't find him ignorant = because of that (although it is wired because he lives 'near by'. But = probably he knows that Yugoslavia doesn't exist, as well as = Serbo-Croatian.)... I won't discuss Carroll or his attitude about our = language(s) as we have only one sentence (which I found funny and cute). = But I am more interested WHY you posted such an answer... don't really = understand that. I would judge it is a bit of arrogance, but I leave = that up to you, and don't want to offend. Still don't really understand = the need to post 1rst article you found on google search (!), probably = written by some student, about the topic you probably don't know or care = much (from culture, history and language(s) you probably don't know), = and the article you probably didn't read completely... but I'm assuming = too much. If you want you can explain. Also, from your post I didn't = really understand what you want to say: that I claim that Serbo-Croatian = doesn't exist because I'm a Croat? (I am Croat?) You didn't, did you? = Hope not.=20 the only reason why I know a bit more about the subject is because I = live in Croatia. Still don't have opinion on "Are Serbian and Croatian = the same language or not?"... and I would find that a good question, but = I'm not really interested in finding more about the topic, although in = croatian/serbian many discussion from both sides (croatian and serbian) = can be found on that question, from people, professionals and linguistic = far more credible that Sean McLennan.. but, I'll give you my opinion on McLennan's text which I find a bit = pretentious. (a bit? Well, a lot)=20 SM doesn't know croatian/serbian language, (and history of language(s)) = which can be seen from (very) few mistakes he made. His bibliography is very poor. and his article based mostly on interview = with Daniel Solovanovic...=20 "This statement concerning the general attitude of Serbs was made by my = informants, neither of 1whom were Serbian. There is no reason to doubt = the truth of the statement; however, since I had no Serbian informant to = confirm or deny it, I recognize the possible bias." who is Daniel Solovanovic anyway? As you said in one post (on will leaving the list): You know, of course, that a member of a group using a word to describe = the group, as opposed to a non-member, are completely different beasts, = right? it just reminded me and can be applied here (member of group speaking = about the group, or non-member). it makes a great difference if DS is = Croat or Serb. So, although from last name Solovanovic seems to be Serb, = SM wrote he is Croat, which makes a great difference. I don't know = anything about DS (and I'm not going to search on google), but without = him being linguistic or not, he as a Croat is maybe just very critical = about situation in Croatia. He is not giving any answer on question of = one or two languages. In the text there is no critical Serbs to speak on = situation in Serbia, and there are no Croats speaking critical about = Serbia or Serbs speaking critical about Croatia (that could be read as = nationalism)... DS can be live example of critical Croat, certainly not = nationalist that care about the croatian and serbian words, and doesn't = make a big difference about that. Beside that, there are no Serbs or = Croat, linguistic that are discussing subject of one/two languages. Not = even in bibliography.=20 Then, there is nothing, nothing, nothing on serbian point of view=20 "Autonomy: Croats certainly feel that they speak a different language. = The opposite appears to be true however, with Serbs." Yes, he wrote that, but with no sources, explanation (lack of = explanations seems to be his big problem)There is nothing on serbian = nationalism, possible reason why they think it is one language, is it = true they imposed anything and so on... nothing.the story is very black = and white, which make me be a little bit sceptical. I guess Croatia is = for him a school example of nationalism, and battle on 'dictionary = front', without explaining why, which I find very important. Half of his = papers are short (serbian/croatian) history and the most important war = (where he could maybe find some reason for battles) and period of = Yugoslavia (when the idea of one language was born) he just mentioned, = although it is a time where Croat started to make a difference in = language. He is mentioning Croats "perception that Serbian had been = imposed upon them", without explaining it. It is all maybe just wrong = perception, but still... "when Serbo-Croatian was taught in schools, Ekavian, the Serb standard = was the one that was taught." I don't think it is true, but here we can find reasons for their = perception. Well, he doesn't feel like that so it must be wrong = perception: "However, I don't feel that we can claim that either variant is seen as = a sub-variety of the other." And then you have=20 "Dragutin Suboti, Ph.D. and Nevill Forbes, M.A., Ph.D. had this to say = in the preface of their book "Serbian Grammar" (1926): "The title of this book has been chosen for the sake of simplicity. The = full name of the language is Serbo-Croatian. It must be emphasized that = Croatian, except for slight differences of dialect and vocabulary, is = absolutely the same language as Serbian, only written with the Latin = alphabet with diacritic signs. Knowledge of both of the Cyrillic and = Latin (Croatian) alphabets is indispensable to any student of Serbo-Croatian" so, we have Serbo-Croatian, and they named grammar "Serbian grammar". = Why didn't they name it "Croatian grammar"?=20 (please notice that it's from 1926.) (I guess because they wrote about Serbian grammar, that is maybe very = similar to Croatian, but they chose to write serbian solutions wherever = it is different from croatian) eh, here are the best parts: "As well, Croats at least, believe that their variant has a purity = distinct from Serbian in that they perceive Serbian as being "impure", = having more outside influences from other languages than Croatian = (Personal Consultation)." (just to remind you: he doesn't feel that any variant is sub-variety. I = guess only Croats think like that) "Unsurprisingly, the poorest speakers of Croatian are those with a = variant closest to Serbian." Eh. What to say? What's next? He'll base his study on "Behind Enemy = Lines", where everybody are the bad guys, only American as great (or = Canadians)?=20 This sentences really make me angry. It is not only that I don't find = them as truth but that people can create their opinion based on some = stupid article, and that you can write sentences like: "someone's opinion of the existence of a serbo-croatian language depends = upon whether they are Serbian or Croatian" maybe it is not your opinion, but it is true that you got that from = text, and it is completely false. Even without knowing anything about us = (croats/serbs), political situation (in past and present), nationalism = (from both sides and how it is explain from those who are nationalist... = and their reasons, no matter what we think about that (reasons, = nationalism)), and languages, this paper have to many holes.=20 "Under Tito, Serbo-Croatian was declared the official language and it = was required by all citizens." What is Serbo-Croatian? Serbo-Croatian is name of language during the = Yugoslavia (not only under Tito). The question is: what was the standard = during that period when language was named Serbo-Croatian (or = Croat-Serbian)? Students were taught Cyrillic and Latin (in Croatian = first Latin then Cyrillic), but they didn't have one standard that was = taught both in Serbia and Croatia. So in Croatia it was still taught = Croatian, and in Serbia Serbian. Serbo-Croatian as standard language = never existed (although they tried to work on it). It existed only as a = name. But they didn't chose what solutions should be standard. And they = didn't taught what SM calls ekavian, but I would call it Serbian... Even = that name is not correct, because (at least on formal side) they didn't = won't to impose anything, so in Croatia it was Croat-Serbian, and in = Serbia Serbo-Croatian... later around 1970. they named it 'Croatian or = Serbian language', and both solution ekavin and ijekavian, as well as = both Cyrillic and Latin were equal (so under Tito language was named = 'Croatian and Serbian' and had both dialects as equal). In the past = (1913. and later) they wanted to have ekavian and latin as standard, but = that idea didn't survive (even when croatian intellect wrote on ekavian = it has other croatian specifics)...=20 I could write you shortly about that but don't want to annoy you. During = that period of Yugoslavia, name of language as well as question of = standardization changed very often...=20 >From McLennan papers you can see that he don't know even history of = those question, but is only based on 1926. and later on DS... and he = didn't explain why croats think it is a different language and serbs = don't (or it is just nationalism?) So, conclusion: serbo-croatian doesn't existe (nor croato-serbian). Still there is questions if it is one language? And in case it is: how = it should be called and how to make one standard? And there is still question: Why you posted that anyway? :) btw, it is true that serbian was imposed and that croats reacted on that = from 1904. till now... but this is another story.=20 If you survived till the end and have understand half of it:=20 Congratulations :) Or ((((())))) :) ><><>< ab =20 ---------------------------------------------- Anyway, according to this site:=20 http://www.shaav.com/professional/linguistics/serbocroation.html someone's opinion of the existence of a serbo-croatian language depends=20 upon whether they are Serbian or Croatian: > The general attitude of Croats is that Croatian (Stokavian -=20 > Ijekavian) and Serbian (Stokavian - Ekavian) are completely autonomous = > languages and as such, Croats try to emphasize the differences. Serbs=20 > however, are trying to down play those differences, taking the=20 > position that there is only one language with several variants.=20 > Regardless, Croats appear to be the most vehement in questions of=20 > language, mainly because of the perception that Serbian had been=20 > imposed upon them. Currently, a movement to label all Serbian words=20 > and remove them from Croatian use is underway.=20 And a Google search of "serbo-croatian" yields 205,000 hits: http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Dserb= o-croatian&btnG=3DSearch So while you may disagree with Mr. Carroll, he wasn't speaking=20 ignorantly -- just from a different point of view. I couldn't find=20 anything about translations of Carroll into Serbian or Croatian either,=20 though.=20 Jim ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C42278.E8256040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

> So=20 while you may disagree with Mr. Carroll, he wasn't speaking
> = ignorantly=20 -- just from a different point of view

 and you know that because you asked him? :) = or it is=20 so hard to believe that some American (writer) who lives in Austria for = 28 years=20 doesn't know that serbo-croatian doesn't exist (anymore)? I doubt that = Carroll=20 has opinion on this subject, and that's ok... I don't find him ignorant = because=20 of that (although it is wired because he lives 'near by'. But probably = he knows=20 that Yugoslavia doesn't exist, as well as Serbo-Croatian.)... I won't = discuss=20 Carroll or his = attitude about=20 our language(s) as we have only one sentence (which I found funny and = cute). But=20 I am more interested WHY you posted such an answer... don't really = understand=20 that. I would judge it is a bit of arrogance, but I leave that up to = you, and=20 don't want to offend. Still don't really understand the need to post = 1rst=20 article you found on google search (!), probably written by some = student, about=20 the topic you probably don't know or care much (from culture, history = and=20 language(s) you probably don't know), and the article you probably = didn't read=20 completely... but I'm assuming too much. If you want you can explain. = Also, from=20 your post I didn't really understand what you want to say: that I claim = that=20 Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist because I'm a Croat? (I am Croat?) = You didn't, did you? Hope not. =

the only reason why I = know  a bit more about the subject = is because=20 I live in Croatia. Still don't have opinion on "Are Serbian and Croatian = the=20 same language or not?"... and I would find that a good question, but I'm = not=20 really interested in finding more about the topic, although in = croatian/serbian=20 many discussion from both sides (croatian and serbian) can be found on = that=20 question, from people, professionals and linguistic far more credible = that Sean=20 McLennan..

but, I'll give you my opinion = on=20 McLennan's text which I find a bit pretentious. (a bit? Well, a lot) =

SM doesn't know = croatian/serbian language,=20 (and history of language(s)) which can be seen from (very) few mistakes = he=20 made.

His = bibliography=20 is very poor. and his article based mostly on interview with Daniel=20 Solovanovic...

"This statement concerning the general = attitude of=20 Serbs was made by my informants, neither of 1whom were Serbian. There is = no=20 reason to doubt the truth of the statement; however, since I had no = Serbian=20 informant to confirm or deny it, I recognize the possible = bias."

who = is Daniel=20 Solovanovic anyway?

As = you said in=20 one post (on will leaving the list):

 You know, of course, that a member of = a group=20 using a word to describe the group, as opposed to a non-member, are = completely=20 different beasts, right?

it just reminded me and can be applied here = (member=20 of group speaking about the group, or non-member). it makes a great = difference=20 if DS is Croat or Serb. So, although from last name Solovanovic = seems to be=20 Serb, SM wrote he is Croat, which makes a great difference. I don't know = anything about DS (and I'm not going to search on google), but without = him being=20 linguistic or not, he as a Croat is maybe just very critical about = situation in=20 Croatia. He is not giving any answer on question of one or two = languages. In the=20 text there is no critical Serbs to speak on situation in Serbia, and = there are=20 no Croats speaking critical about Serbia or Serbs speaking critical = about=20 Croatia (that could be read as nationalism)... DS can be live example of = critical Croat, certainly not nationalist that care about the croatian = and=20 serbian words, and doesn't make a big difference about that. Beside = that, there=20 are no Serbs or Croat, linguistic that are discussing subject of one/two = languages. Not even in bibliography.

Then, there is=20 nothing, nothing, nothing on serbian point of view =

"Autonomy: Croats=20 certainly feel that they speak a different language. The opposite = appears to be=20 true however, with Serbs."

Yes, he wrote=20 that, but with no sources, explanation (lack of explanations seems to be = his big=20 problem)There is = nothing on=20 serbian nationalism, possible reason why they think it is one language, = is it=20 true they imposed anything and so on... nothing.the story is very black and white, which = make me be a=20 little bit sceptical. I guess Croatia is for him a school example of=20 nationalism, and battle on 'dictionary front', without explaining why, = which I=20 find very important. Half of his papers are short (serbian/croatian) = history and=20 the most important war (where he could maybe find some reason for = battles) and=20 period of Yugoslavia (when the idea of one language was born) he just=20 mentioned,  although it is = a time=20 where Croat started to make a difference in language. He is mentioning = Croats=20 "perception that Serbian had been imposed upon them", without = explaining=20 it. It is all maybe just wrong perception, but still...

"when Serbo-Croatian was = taught in=20 schools, Ekavian, the Serb standard was the one that was=20 taught."

I = don't think it=20 is true, but here we can find reasons for their perception. Well, he = doesn't=20 feel like that so it must be wrong perception:

"However, I don't feel = that we can=20 claim that either variant is seen as a sub-variety of the=20 other."

And = then you have=20

"Dragutin Suboti,=20 Ph.D. and Nevill Forbes, M.A., Ph.D. had this to say in the preface of = their=20 book "Serbian Grammar" (1926):
"The title of this book has been = chosen for=20 the sake of simplicity. The full name of the language is Serbo-Croatian. = It must=20 be emphasized that Croatian, except for slight differences of dialect = and=20 vocabulary, is absolutely the same language as Serbian, only written = with the=20 Latin alphabet with diacritic signs. Knowledge of both of the Cyrillic = and=20 Latin
(Croatian) alphabets is indispensable to any student of=20 Serbo-Croatian"

so, = we have=20 Serbo-Croatian, and they named grammar "Serbian grammar". Why didn't = they name=20 it "Croatian grammar"?

(please notice=20 that it's from 1926.)

(I = guess because=20 they wrote about Serbian grammar, that is maybe very similar to = Croatian, but=20 they chose to write serbian solutions wherever it is different from=20 croatian)

eh, = here are the=20 best parts:

"As = well, Croats=20 at least, believe that their variant has a purity distinct from Serbian = in that=20 they perceive Serbian as being "impure", having more outside influences = from=20 other languages than Croatian (Personal = Consultation)."

(just to remind=20 you: he doesn't feel that any variant is sub-variety. I guess only = Croats think=20 like that)

 "Unsurprisingly, the poorest speakers = of=20 Croatian are those with a variant closest to = Serbian."

Eh. = What to say?=20 What's next? He'll base his study on "Behind Enemy Lines", where = everybody are=20 the bad guys, only American as great (or Canadians)? =

This sentences=20 really make me angry. It is not only that I don't find them as truth but = that=20 people can create their opinion based on some stupid article, and that = you can=20 write sentences like:

"someone's=20 opinion of the existence of a serbo-croatian language depends
upon = whether=20 they are Serbian or Croatian"

maybe it is not=20 your opinion, but it is true that you got that from text, and it is = completely=20 false. Even without knowing anything about us (croats/serbs), political=20 situation (in past and present), nationalism (from both sides and how it = is=20 explain from those who are nationalist... and their reasons, no matter = what we=20 think about that (reasons, nationalism)), and languages, this paper have = to many=20 holes.

"Under Tito,=20 Serbo-Croatian was declared the official language and it was required by = all=20 citizens."

What is=20 Serbo-Croatian? Serbo-Croatian is name of language during the Yugoslavia = (not=20 only under Tito). The question is: what was the standard during that = period when=20 language was named Serbo-Croatian (or Croat-Serbian)? Students were = taught=20 Cyrillic and Latin (in Croatian first Latin then Cyrillic), but they = didn't have=20 one standard that was taught both in Serbia and Croatia. So in Croatia = it was=20 still taught Croatian, and in Serbia Serbian. Serbo-Croatian as standard = language never existed (although they tried to work on it). It existed = only as a=20 name. But they didn't chose what solutions should be standard. And they = didn't=20 taught what SM calls ekavian, but I would call it Serbian... Even that = name is=20 not correct, because (at least on formal side) they didn't won't to = impose=20 anything, so in Croatia it was Croat-Serbian, and in Serbia = Serbo-Croatian...=20 later around 1970. they named it 'Croatian or Serbian language', and = both=20 solution ekavin and ijekavian, as well as both Cyrillic and Latin were = equal (so=20 under Tito language was named 'Croatian and Serbian' and had both = dialects as=20 equal). In the past (1913. and later) they wanted to have ekavian and = latin as=20 standard, but that idea didn't survive (even when croatian intellect = wrote on=20 ekavian it has other croatian specifics)...

I = could write you=20 shortly about that but don't want to annoy you. During that period of=20 Yugoslavia, name of language as well as question of standardization = changed very=20 often...

From McLennan=20 papers you can see that he don't know even history of those question, = but is=20 only based on 1926. and later on DS... and he didn't explain why croats = think it=20 is a different language and serbs don't (or it is just=20 nationalism?)

So, = conclusion:=20 serbo-croatian doesn't existe (nor = croato-serbian).

Still there is=20 questions if it is one language? And in case it is: how it should be = called and=20 how to make one standard?

And = there is=20 still question:

Why = you posted=20 that anyway?

:)

btw, it is true=20 that serbian was imposed and that croats reacted on that from 1904. till = now...=20 but this is another story.

If = you survived=20 till the end and have understand half of it:

Congratulations=20 :)

Or

((((()))))

:)

><><><

ab

 

----------------------------------------------
Anyway, = according to=20 this site:
http://www.shaav.com/professional/linguistics/serbocroation.html
=
someone's=20 opinion of the existence of a serbo-croatian language depends
upon = whether=20 they are Serbian or Croatian:

> The general attitude of Croats = is that=20 Croatian (Stokavian -
> Ijekavian) and Serbian (Stokavian - = Ekavian) are=20 completely autonomous
> languages and as such, Croats try to = emphasize=20 the differences. Serbs
> however, are trying to down play those=20 differences, taking the
> position that there is only one = language with=20 several variants.
> Regardless, Croats appear to be the most = vehement in=20 questions of
> language, mainly because of the perception that = Serbian=20 had been
> imposed upon them. Currently, a movement to label all = Serbian=20 words
> and remove them from Croatian use is underway. =


And a=20 Google search of "serbo-croatian" yields 205,000 hits:

http://www.google.c= om/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&q=3Dserbo-c= roatian&btnG=3DSearch

So=20 while you may disagree with Mr. Carroll, he wasn't speaking =
ignorantly --=20 just from a different point of view.  I couldn't find
anything = about=20 translations of Carroll into Serbian or Croatian either,
though.=20

Jim

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C42278.E8256040-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41Y727391 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:34 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 14 Apr 2004 14:41:30 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 14 Apr 2004 14:41:30 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 407DAFEA.CC38.0B2E.000] Content-Identifier: 01803407DB00A001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <407DAFEA.CC38.0B2E.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 14 Apr 2004 14:41:30 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: Re: City of Glass Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org yes, daniel, i just recently ran across that graphic novel you were hoping to read and learn from: how not to pee on your belt. have you tried the hellboy yet daniel? i think you will be pleasantly surprised, as i was. -mike >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/14/04 02:17PM >>> Tim, I just ran across an ad for a graphic novel that St Martin's Press is putting out in the next few months that I thought you would be interested in; Paul Auster's City of Glass, soft cover, B&W, 144 pages, $14. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:01:32 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F41WB27369 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040414212058.18813.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: David Johnson Subject: Re: City of Glass To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404141721.i3EHLTox024000@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1336798063-1081977658=:17396" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-1336798063-1081977658=:17396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This was published a few years ago by an imprint called Neon Lit, which sadly folded soon afterwards. They were also slated to bring out the graphic adaptation of William Gresham's NIGHTMARE ALLEY, which finally appeared about a year ago from a different publisher. FWIW I thought the Auster adaptation was very well-done. David J. Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: Tim, I just ran across an ad for a graphic novel that St Martin's Press is putting out in the next few months that I thought you would be interested in; Paul Auster's City of Glass, soft cover, B&W, 144 pages, $14. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --0-1336798063-1081977658=:17396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
This was published a few years ago by an imprint called Neon Lit, which sadly folded soon afterwards.  They were also slated to bring out the graphic adaptation of William Gresham's NIGHTMARE ALLEY, which finally appeared about a year ago from a different publisher. 
FWIW I thought the Auster adaptation was very well-done.
David J.

Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE <daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil> wrote:
Tim, I just ran across an ad for a graphic novel that St Martin's Press is
putting out in the next few months that I thought you would be interested
in; Paul Auster's City of Glass, soft cover, B&W, 144 pages, $14.

Daniel
-
* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message
* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --0-1336798063-1081977658=:17396-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 00:34:46 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3F4Yk728893 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 00:34:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "David Johnson" (by way of Tim O'Connor ) X-From_: djohnso2001@yahoo.com Wed Apr 14 17:23:13 2004 X-Original-To: bananfish@roughdraft.org Message-ID: <20040414212257.19136.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remaindered book on the battle of Hurtgen Forest To: bananfish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==_20040415043330.6440-1_==" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --==_20040415043330.6440-1_== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For J.D. fans who might be interested in a more extensive history of that infamous battle in which he participated: http://www.daedalusbooks.com/Products/Detail.asp? ProductID=37837&Media=Book&SubCategor yID=&ReturnUrl=%2FProducts%2FSearch%2 FHomeQuickSearchResult%2Easp%3FSearch %3Dbattle%2Bof%2Bhurtgen%2Bforest%26M edia%3D%26image1%2Ex%3D12%26image1%2Ey%3D4 David J. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --==_20040415043330.6440-1_== Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
For J.D. fans who might be interested in a more extensive history of that infamous battle in which he participated:
 
 
David J.
 
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th --==_20040415043330.6440-1_==-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 21:45:45 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3G1jjQ25684 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:06:35 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: More about translation References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ana -- I actually read three or four of the links and got the impression that one's opinion of the matter pretty much depends on one's sympathies. I think your post reinforces this impression. Of course, I won't argue that the history and issues are far more complicated than can be described on one webpage. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 21:45:45 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3G1jj225689 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040415212144.97592.qmail@web60902.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:21:44 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404142255.i3EMtlNN013340@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I still ignorantly believe the revisionist Buddy of SAI that the German typewriter was responsible for the off-key atmospherics of APDFB. --Mad Moldy Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 15 21:45:46 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3G1jkK25694 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040415220013.45534.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:00:13 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Oldie To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <407DEFE3.7070706@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- James Rovira wrote: > Still, I get the impression sometimes that his > "other reading" was > guided by some primary readings in Eastern texts. > > Jim, I think JDS's readings of Christian texts were affected by an eastern perspective. It seems to me JDS kept an allegiance to western lit over eastern; the Hapworth reading list is still predominately western. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:52 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNqT04268 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <407FE771.2080907@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:02:25 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Oldie References: <20040415220013.45534.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040415220013.45534.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yeah -- that appropriation of the teachings of Christ at the end of "Zooey" seems definitely more eastern than Christian. But that's interesting what you say about the reading list. I hadn't really paid attention to it. It makes sense that he had read western lit all his life and was more familiar with it than eastern lit, so his list would be drawn primarily from his reading in western lit. I suspect, though, that his reading in eastern lit (at least at one point) guided what he saw and valued in western lit. I also get the impression that his reading in eastern lit articulated what he'd already believed for quite some time. Jim City Cabin wrote: >Jim, I think JDS's readings of Christian texts were >affected by an eastern perspective. > >It seems to me JDS kept an allegiance to western lit >over eastern; the Hapworth reading list is still >predominately western. > >--Bruce > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:56 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNuc04293 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [193.198.146.77] X-Originating-Email: [anabuneta@hotmail.com] X-Sender: anabuneta@hotmail.com From: "ana" To: References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> Subject: Re: More about translation Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:39:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2004 16:42:09.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2DF7D20:01C423D1] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org i wrote pages and pages for such an answer. grrrrrr :) well jim, it is great difference to say that one's opinion depends on one's sympathies and to say the one's opinion depends on his nationality (and nationalism) what worries me are generalization and prejudices. it doesn't help in reconciliation and forgiveness at all. and I don't think that my post showed my sympathies at all. I just wanted to put some facts. if we are talking about MY sympathies, I would say I adore ekavian (it just makes life more easier :)) and use some of serbian solutions no matter what others think... I justify myself with 'licencia poetica' :)) I would also say that I think it is one language. The problem appears when you have to make one standard out of two, that are part of two national groups and have their histories (both- languages and groups)... and how to name that language. isn't it funny to call language 'croatian or serbian language'?? it is like calling it 'italian or english language'. :)) funny. or to call language 'serbo-croatian' when you are in serbia, and 'croato-serbian' in croatia. again, without making one standard. I agree with Ivo Andric when he said that he is writing on 'yugoslavian'. don't understand why they didn't named it 'yugoslavian language' with standard that would have ekavian and ijekavian as equal. you could mix it, and that would be just fine! I'm very sorry that Cyrillic is not taught in schools anymore. when I become Minister of Science or Education :) I will put it as obligation since elementary school. same goes for English. :) just few more facts. it is true that in '90. Croats started to make a big deal out of language question. they came up with some new words like Daniel Solovanovic probably said to McLennan... writing dictionaries with unnecessary words in croatian language (not only serbian words, but russian, english, italian...) "Dictionary of unnecessary foreign words in Croatian language". but if you are writing sociolinguistic analyse on that subject, it is very much important to notice that it was under Tudjman and his government. which means, and is true that 'his' people (right-handed) were on important places in education as well. (most of the) words they came up with weren't accepted by people, and there was a strong critic of other intellectuals. And so on. we had boys from Sarajevo that had some kind of their Monthy Python show, and joked about six different languages croatian, serbian, montenegrian, bosnian, hercegovian... they would repeat six equal sentences of six languages that would sound equally and pretend nobody understand each other... or scene with a lady from bosnia coming in serbian shop asking for a tea, and man offering here all sort of things, and then taking dictionary and reading 'tea' meaning 'tea' and being very surprised. and so on. it is great. I still have that on laptop. so, yeah, we had and have nationalism. but, don't think we are the only one with that problem. Btw, did you find anything on croato-serbian language? ><><>< ana ----- Original Message ----- From: James Rovira To: Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:06 PM Subject: Re: More about translation > Ana -- I actually read three or four of the links and got the impression > that one's opinion of the matter pretty much depends on one's > sympathies. I think your post reinforces this impression. Of course, > I won't argue that the history and issues are far more complicated than > can be described on one webpage. > > Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:57 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNva04301 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040416230627.8746.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 16:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Last night I reread Gordon Lish's story "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses." For those that don't know of it, it is a **fifty-one** page letter, from Sol Salinger to his son. The octogenerian Sol has attempted to phone JDS to wish him High Happy Holidays only to find out that the unlisted number he has is no longer current. So he is reduced to writing him. The letter opens: "You will do me a favor and answer me this question, please God it should not be for you too much trouble to do it. So you will take all of two seconds and you will tell me, Jerome, since when did you hear of a civilized person which gets rid of a perfectly good unlisted and then goes and gets another one on top of it?" In a truly tour de force comic monologue, Sol deals with prickly subjects like his son's need for "privacy" --"He [Sol] could also spell it for you backwards and sideways and meanwhile tell you it still comes out the same thing, which is G-E-T L-O-S-T." Sol lives in a Florida apt building peopled with the relatives of 2 dozen Jewish-American writers who are always trying to one up each other with their writing relative's success. Sol use to be in "the penthouse", but now, no, Jerome won't even consider going on Merv Griffith to help out his father's standing. He laments there aren't any books being published so he tries to help out: "So the plots, Jerome, tell me, did you see anything there?" There aren't recent photos of his son to pass around. He tells him a genius of even Einstein's standing allowed photos to be taken. There's a marvellous part about the use of J.D. which drives Sol crazy--instead of the "symphony of music to the most discriminating ears: Jerome David". "But a thing like J.D., Jerome, since when is a thing like J.D. a name?" Sol warns him it will even offend the King of Sweden: "So the man sees where it says you didn't have the heart to put your whole name down, just don't be surprised, Jerome, when he says to himself, 'This one here, he's not fooling no King of Sweden, nohow!'. It is terribly funny all in context, and, yes, a bit mean-spirited. (It does tap into one's baser feelings regarding JDS's reclusion.) The story appears in Lish's collection, "What I Know So Far" and originally in the Antioch Review, Summer of 1983. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:52 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNqR04275 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404161444.i3GEiqbN025163@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie and not so Boldie Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:44:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org "off-key atmospherics"? is this Bruce speak for -old fart-? I believe you believe Buddy, two moldy peas in an "insipent"-ly mad pod. Invasion of the body snatchers, hmmmm, so is Buddy the pod people version of Seymour? We have a German typewriter, a German Pistol, and German Poems; all from a European theater of operations. And then we have this: EXHIBIT A: "However, several members of my immediate, if somewhat far-flung, family, who regularly pick over my published prose for small technical errors,..." and so the far flunged stalking Mad Bruces of the world join buddy in fobbing off the perplexing "small" alley oop "technical errors" on the Germans. Germans, ahhh, that goose stepping, sieg hieling Key to APDFB. I still prefer to lay the responsibility at the feet of that "off-key Atmospherics" (old fart) himself. Bruce, I never knew that mold was so social, circling the wagons around its besieged community. We knew you were mad but afraid too? Daniel I still ignorantly believe the revisionist Buddy of SAI that the German typewriter was responsible for the off-key atmospherics of APDFB. --Mad Moldy Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:51 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNpa04264 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie_Aron?= To: References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:02:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I heard your voice, Jim, bought my books, and left (or was fired) my job last wednesday. I'm told that I 'm the happiest unemployed person ever seen. Cheers! Val ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rovira" To: Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:24 PM Subject: Re: No longer unemployed > My ex wife used to work in a law office. > > Buy your books before you find you need to change jobs :) > > Jim > >> * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:23:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNNsG04285 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:23:54 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 16 Apr 2004 10:49:31 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 16 Apr 2004 10:49:31 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40801C97.CC38.211E.000] Content-Identifier: 0590940801CAB006 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40801C97.CC38.211E.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 16 Apr 2004 10:49:31 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: OT - FUN LINKS Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org The Tao Te Ching - My heart still belongs to the Stephen Mitchell version...but click on the link below to read the Ron Hogan version: http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/ron.html While reading it, I experienced the same feeling when I listened to the reggae version of Dark Side Of The Moon...a fresh breathe: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDSUB040404131135092134&sql=Absug6j5371y0 - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:30:31 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNUVo04652 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:26:20 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Message-ID: <20040416232619.GA3494@panix.com> References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:02:17AM +0200, Valérie Aron wrote: > I heard your voice, Jim, bought my books, and left (or was fired) my job > last wednesday. I'm told that I 'm the happiest unemployed person ever seen. You are really out of work already? This must be a record of some sort. Do you still get to take August off to spend it at the beach? 8-) --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 16 19:30:32 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3GNUWO04657 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 19:29:37 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" Message-ID: <20040416232937.GA3636@panix.com> References: <20040416230627.8746.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040416230627.8746.qmail@web60901.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 04:06:27PM -0700, City Cabin wrote: > Last night I reread Gordon Lish's story "For > Jerome--With Love and Kisses." For those that don't > know of it, it is a **fifty-one** page letter, from > Sol Salinger to his son. The octogenerian Sol has > attempted to phone JDS to wish him High Happy Holidays > only to find out that the unlisted number he has is no > longer current. So he is reduced to writing him. That is a hilarious story. Did you also read "For Rupert -- with No Promises"? When Esquire published it, they put a sidebar in that claimed that they had no idea who wrote it. (Lish did. He also claimed to have spoken, later, to JDS on the phone, and that they discussed their children.) > In a truly tour de force comic monologue, Sol deals > with prickly subjects like his son's need for > "privacy" --"He [Sol] could also spell it for you > backwards and sideways and meanwhile tell you it still > comes out the same thing, which is G-E-T L-O-S-T." Yes, I love how he tries the operator, and especially the notion of where one lives in the apartment building, based on the status of one's son. (Don't the Roths occupy the top place at one point?) --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 18 16:08:28 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3IK8Sl24133 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <408138DE.8020407@drew.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:02:06 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: No longer unemployed References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> In-Reply-To: <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Thank God you bought your books while you could :). You can add to your resume, "The Pits of Hell" now. Jim Valérie Aron wrote: >I heard your voice, Jim, bought my books, and left (or was fired) my job >last wednesday. I'm told that I 'm the happiest unemployed person ever seen. > >Cheers! > >Val > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 18 16:08:28 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3IK8SP24128 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001d01c42454$ad1f77f0$5920fb51@GEORGES> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie_Aron?= To: References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> <20040416232619.GA3494@panix.com> Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:18:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yep. Do you think I can earn some money with this record? Why August? I've a reservation for June and July. Have a nice week-end everyone. Valérie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim O'Connor" To: Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 1:26 AM Subject: Re: No longer unemployed > On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:02:17AM +0200, Valérie Aron wrote: > > > I heard your voice, Jim, bought my books, and left (or was fired) my job > > last wednesday. I'm told that I 'm the happiest unemployed person ever seen. > > You are really out of work already? This must be a record of some sort. > Do you still get to take August off to spend it at the beach? 8-) > > --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 18 16:08:29 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3IK8TS24137 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 16:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40813CDD.4090802@drew.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:19:09 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: More about translation References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha, yeah, that's annoying, isn't it? I read your entire post (both times) and really appreciate the information you're passing on. Regarding the Carroll interview, it's really difficult to make any inferences just based on the fact that he made reference to "Serbo-croatian" -- probably picked it up from a Serbian :). Regarding your reading of the sites I posted -- yep, you're right, there's a good bit of bias there. That was my point: bias is unavoidable in any discussion of language. Really orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Christians believe Hebrew was spoken in the Garden of Eden (not that this is taught in Scripture or any creeds. If you were going to guess based upon the Biblical narrative, you'd assume that Hebrew was descended from Chaldean with Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, and perhaps some other semitic languages thrown in - but that'd be just guessing). A Sumerian story parallel to the Tower of Babel affirms, of course, that the original language was Sumerian and everything else is deviation. Here in the US there's a bit of a different situation. The main, recognized dialect of English -- Standard Written English, with all its bland pronunciations -- isn't spoken by anyone except people on television and radio and people teaching English in classrooms, and not even completely there. Everyone actually speaks different dialects, a few of which come closer to SWE than others, but none of which are equal to it. But one's opinion, we agree, does depend on one sympathies. I would also say that among most people one's sympathies run parallel to one's nationality, but not in all cases. Since you probably don't disagree with that either, then how are you expecting me to respond? :) Jim ana wrote: >i wrote pages and pages for such an answer. grrrrrr :) > >well jim, it is great difference to say that one's opinion depends on one's >sympathies and to say the one's opinion depends on his nationality > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 18 19:05:16 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3IN5GD03073 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 19:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:50:09 -0400 From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Message-ID: <20040418225008.GA29029@panix.com> References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> <20040416232619.GA3494@panix.com> <001d01c42454$ad1f77f0$5920fb51@GEORGES> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <001d01c42454$ad1f77f0$5920fb51@GEORGES> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Sat, Apr 17, 2004 at 10:18:30AM +0200, Valérie Aron wrote: > Yep. Do you think I can earn some money with this record? > > Why August? I've a reservation for June and July. Well, in my experience (and probably yours), the city turns itself off on July 31. I was eating dinner one night in a cafe near Invalides, and was with the last group dining. Max (owner, chef, waiter, and all-around man of affairs) went to his freezer about 11 pm, and said that since we were his last customers, and he was about to embark on vacation, it would please him if we accepted the bag, compliments of the house. When we all got back to the tiny studio where we were staying, we found that the bag was crammed full of ice-cream containers, and very good ice-cream indeed. It was far too much to fit in the hostess's miniature freezer, so we saluted the Tour Eiffel and ate far too much ice-cream, but at least we put a dent in the supply and fit most of the remainder in the freezer. Six months later, I checked in with the hostess, and she still had plenty left. It was very generous and thoughtful of Max. I stop in and say hello whenever I am in his neighborhood. (But with this bad economy, I have not been able to visit Paris in the last two years, regrettably.) I am almost certain that he thinks I am simply a lunatic tourist. Although it would destroy my life (due to, ah, matters of consequence [see The Little Prince for an explanation), I have to say that unemployment sounds pretty good to me at the moment. I hope you make productive use of it. Is there an unemployment ministry that pays you your wages while you are out of work? There is a ministry for everything else (cheese, baguettes, drinking water), so why not one for unemployment? I am sad for you, but happy too. I have had lunatic maniac screaming bosses too, and it's good to escape them. Regards as always, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 22:55:13 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K2tDR24164 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040419160102.777.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:01:02 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <20040416232937.GA3636@panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Tim O'Connor wrote: > Did you also read "For > Rupert -- with No > Promises"? When Esquire published it, they put a > sidebar in that > claimed that they had no idea who wrote it. (Lish > did. He also claimed > to have spoken, later, to JDS on the phone, and that > they discussed > their children.) Yes, I reread "For Rupert." I remember when it first came out. I didn't think it was by JDS then. Lish refers to Smithy (Zooey) as "an actor until radio gave out." Then a bartender. As we know, he was a television actor. And both Buddy and Z/S refer to their mother as Mom, when all of the Glasses refer to her as Bessie. The reasoning for killing the first son seemed a stretch. I didn't believe Z/S would do that, nor that he would have been committed twice. *However* I did like the prologue and coda where Lish imitates Buddy's voice. Very interesting his rejection of the For Esme story. And his acknowledgment that he has misled his readers. The American woman author he refers to at the end without naming--do you think it is Ozick? Alexander devotes a page and a half quoting Lish re the genesis and reaction to the story. I think "For Jerome," however, is a minor masterpiece. > > where one lives in the apartment building, based on > the status of one's > son. (Don't the Roths occupy the top place at one > point?) > > No, but see below: "...nothing is these days what it used to be, not in any shape, manner or form. It's not like it was in the old days. Tell me, darling, you remember how it was in the old days when you were at the top of the heap and your father was down here up in the penthouse? So guess who is in the penthouse now. Because the Allen people is the answer!" ... "Do I live in the Seavue Spa Oceanfront Garden Arms and Apartments or do I live in the woods in a tree? And as to this residential, Jerome, we're talking from one floor to the next what? Are we talking people which got kids in cloacks and suits, or are we talking people which got kids in books? The works, Jerome, the cream of the crop of literature business is right here in this very building, and I want to remind you that your father, and not you, which is the person that has to live with them!" ... "So are you a genius in your own right, and I got to draw for you a diagram? You need me to write down for you Saul this and Saul that, Phillie this and Phillie that--not to mention Woody, Woody, Woody until your father's got it coming out of both ears?" --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 22:55:12 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K2tC024158 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301c425e4$1854fa50$10cd0d50@GEORGES> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie_Aron?= To: References: <003f01c41725$e686a8b0$af3bfdc1@GEORGES> <20040408020429.17480@mail.panix.com> <003601c41da2$d9d41980$3419f951@GEORGES> <4075B514.6060800@drew.edu> <005201c42391$9168a180$b64dfa51@GEORGES> <20040416232619.GA3494@panix.com> <001d01c42454$ad1f77f0$5920fb51@GEORGES> <20040418225008.GA29029@panix.com> Subject: Re: No longer unemployed Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:57:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org > Well, in my experience (and probably yours), the city turns itself off > on July 31. Yes, that's right, Parisians are usually on holidays in August, but I (and my parents) always left the city in July (except last year, when I left only the 15th of July, and so had the occasion to see the big annuel fireworks near the Tour Eiffel). I like the city in August, as if it belongs to me. There is much less traffic. And it gives me this strange feeling of superiority over people who are hanging about on the beach. I was eating dinner one night in a cafe near Invalides, and > was with the last group dining. Max (owner, chef, waiter, and all-around > man of affairs) went to his freezer about 11 pm, and said that since we > were his last customers, and he was about to embark on vacation, it > would please him if we accepted the bag, compliments of the house. What is the name of the restaurant? I don't go very often in this borough, but that could happen... > > When we all got back to the tiny studio where we were staying, we found > that the bag was crammed full of ice-cream containers, and very good > ice-cream indeed. It was far too much to fit in the hostess's miniature > freezer, so we saluted the Tour Eiffel and ate far too much ice-cream, > but at least we put a dent in the supply and fit most of the remainder > in the freezer. Six months later, I checked in with the hostess, and > she still had plenty left. I imagine the scene and can't keep myself from smiling... > > Although it would destroy my life (due to, ah, matters of consequence > [see The Little Prince for an explanation), I have to say that > unemployment sounds pretty good to me at the moment. I hope you make > productive use of it. That sounds pretty good to me, but I try to look a bit sad, because that's what people (my parents, my friends, unknown people) are actually expecting!!! I use all this free time to... read. I should try to write too, but I always postpone it... I could also pay a visit to NYC: what's the weather like there? Is there an unemployment ministry that pays > you your wages while you are out of work? There is a ministry for > everything else (cheese, baguettes, drinking water), so why not one > for unemployment? There is a ministry for employment (or maybe it is included into the ministry of social problems; the names of ministries change all the time...), but I've not worked enough to be paid wages by the ministry, and I'm too young to get the RMI ( a minimum salary- about 380 euros/ months, I think), since I'm less than 25 years-old. So, no need to be sad for me, Tim, being fired was like deliverance, and I'm lucky enough not to need to earn money right now. Thanks for your support! > Valérie - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 22:55:13 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K2tDQ24169 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040419160448.63923.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:04:48 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie and not so Boldie To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404161444.i3GEiqbN025163@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > > Bruce, I never knew that mold was so social, > circling the wagons around its > besieged community. We knew you were mad but afraid > too? > > I never quite know what you are accusing me of. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 22:55:14 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K2tEM24175 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040419161715.68498.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:17:15 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: Re: Oldie To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <407FE771.2080907@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --- James Rovira wrote: > > I also get the impression that his reading in > eastern lit articulated > what he'd already believed for quite some time. > > It always slightly floors me to remember that JDS didn't complete his freshmen year of college. That all of this extensive reading was done on his own. To make a distinction between lit and philosophy: I think he originally read western literature (all of the writers he loved in 1951 were western). I guess prior to '53 one sees evidence of reading some western religious texts (and psychology). But the whole eastern thing (philosophy and literature) becomes evident in '53 with Teddy. (Though, come to think of it, I vaguely recall from the old days someone saying that "inverted forest" is a Buddhist term!) I think his religious vision is predominately eastern. Or more accurately, it offered him a framework for his own spiritual expression which is a blending of the two, with poetry the harmonizing factor. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 22:55:14 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K2tEO24180 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 22:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/html; MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Subject: Best deal of the month From: "Harrison Diaz" To: bananafish@roughdraft.org X-Priority: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 08:01:53 +0600 Message-Id: <20040420011053.F1AFA987E7@mail3.panix.com> Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org They are usually too ignorant to know how to answer it, or even to be afraid, for temptation comes to them in so many disguises almost always in the form of a polite, well-dressed young vampire in human form, who is “pandering” for some brothel.


No more announcements




The day was beautiful. About this time, Mr. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 19 23:17:22 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3K3HMJ25223 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:17:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Gack! My apologies! Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:14:55 -0400 Message-Id: <20040420031455.24824@mail.panix.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org My most humble and sincere apologies for what I did a moment ago. We have been utterly FLOODED with junk mail, and in tonight's processing I made a typo that let one junk message (a get rich quick scheme, I think; or a body-part-enlarger) slip through. It's the result of too little coffee, too little sleep, and probably too much worrying about Gordon Lish. That last is a joke. Gordon Lish and I have had a very cordial relationship in the past, actually, as long as the topic does not stray to JDS. Ummmm, to cover a few topics in one message: We continue to get spam and virus infestations overwhelmingly. I'm glad I kept the list on manual control, because I have mostly been able to keep up, but (until tonight, when I am admittedly fried) I screwed up one. My desktop spam filter caught it, but you may want to delete it. The subject is: Best deal of the month. Fortunately it had no virus -- only html junk. Other things more relevant: Valerie, do you recall where we had coffee, opposite the Tour Maubourg Metro station, in that glassed-in cafe? If you go out of there and, instead of walking into the Metro, proceed toward Hotel des Invalides on the right side, you will encounter Cafe Max. He has two ragged benches that appear to have been pulled out of a vehicle of some sort. They have witty notes around them. It's a nice, dusty, cozy cafe, but some days Max is funny, other days he is fierce. It is the block at the end of which is that lovely little park that commemorates Antoine de Saint-Exupery. We in New York feel the way you do about August, except our bliss is constructed around weekends. All the beautiful people go out to the beach in the Hamptons, leaving us, especially we who are the ugly people, the city to ourselves. It is quite nice, especially in July and August. We ugly people don't go to the beach. The weather in NY, I hear, has been quite fine. Sadly, I had to work quite a bit (and some of that time, during the weekend, in a ratty basement; and I am quite literal about "ratty," if you know what I mean), and therefore I rely on other people to tell me the weather. The only weather I know first-hand is: darkness. Which, I claim, is its own kind of weather. Being fired from a miserable job is usually good in the long run, but sometimes harmful to the self-esteem in the short run. Especially if one has only a skimpy coat of self-esteem, it results in one or two dents. But they heal with time. Now smile. Smile secretly on the Metro and you will have all the mysterious Metro men approaching you as if you were the Mona Lisa. (I sort of suspect this makes your skin crawl. It makes MY skin crawl.) * Bruce, I agree with you that "For Jerome" is quite good. I have an inordinate affection for that collection, and I routinely reread "For Jerome," and, less often, the other one, "Rupert." The other stories in there are also quite good in their own strange way. I once had a rejection letter from Lish, in which he took the form letter and then proceeded to scrawl in every available centimeter of blank space his comments about the story, his thoughts on a party we had been at, his suggestions for other markets than his magazine, his thoughts on life, and on and on in a crazy spiral that covered the entire free space on the form letter. For years I had it framed and hung in the bathroom, though when I moved I sort of lost it. Poor Gordon Lish. I wish someone would hire him as an editor. He's very good, if unorthodox and slightly insane. * Sorry that I have not responded to more posts, but I think they will get along fine without me. Cheers to all, --tim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 14:17:03 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KIH3c10164 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404201745.i3KHjVBQ029357@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Oldie, Moldie a la modie, I'll have another bite of Seymour Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:45:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i3KHk0b08425 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Bruce, I wasn't going to write this but what the hell. Damm it Bruce, you made me re-read Seymour, An Introduction Sunday night. All I really remembered from my first reading was the marble playing and the fastest boy stuff. Those two things clung to me mostly because they were flash backs to my boyhood days. I remember that golden time at the end of each day, especially during the summer. Frankly, I still have them occasionally. We played all sorts of games including marbles, my Dad whistling for us to come in (he always whistled for us since we could be practically in the next county but that two fingers in the mouth summons could carry pretty far). We knew that ignoring that whistle was costly but the golden time was worth it. I have never been afraid of the dark and we often played until we squeezed every golden dew drop out of that time before we came home, often requiring a long walk in the glowing darkness. Now days when that golden time comes on me I relive those boyhood evenings all over again, all the details but especially the smells, some times wet rich soil, dinners cooking, or pińon smoke drifting about. I too thought (for a little while) that I was the fastest kid in the world. Something in those canvas high top converse, especially new ones, convinced me of that. For about four years of my boyhood we lived in the house at the same time my dad was building it. We had no water, no electricity, no gas, no indoor plumbing. We had kerosene lamps, and hauled all our water, took baths in a big cajeté. my Mom cooked on a wood stove where we heated our bath water. I hated those cold nights requiring a visit to the out house. We had no tv but we had a battery powered radio, we played Monopoly on occasion and just about every card game in Hoyle's. Sometimes, we just talked. My Mom told stories, real and made up ones past down or made up on the spot. I remember quite a few of them even now. My dad told endless Jokes, real jokes with proper punch lines. He also read to us sometimes. We always seemed to have relatives over at all hours of the night, and many cousins slept over frequently. Sometimes in the summer we would drag all our bedding outdoors to sleep under the sky talking till the wee hours of the morning, I mean all of us, Mom, Dad etc. But one thing we did almost ritually was listen to the Drama that came on the radio, Macabre theater, Planet X, Cisco Kid. This was way past the golden age of radio but for some reason they were still on the air when I was a kid. Anyway, I had the most vivid dreams then (I still do but not as frequently) I dreamed that I could run, I mean run like the wind (Buddy-esque speed baby). The funny thing is that I mix up my speed dreams with my winged converse memories. One blurs into the other but the only way I discovered the dream from the memory is by their smell. The memories were from that golden time and they always had a smell and so my images are redeemed. I keep them separate the way a good collector separates his baseball cards from his Star Wars cards. Anyway, it's your fault Bruce, after re-reading Seymour, An Introduction my estimation of Jerome sank a couple of notches. I still consider him one of the best but after re-reading , the golden time accounts are the only ones I care to retain. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 14:17:02 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KIH2W10160 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404201538.i3KFcwx2027618@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie and not so Boldie Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Bruce, I noticed your not-a-key casting a peculiar shadow. It was oval on one end and had a serrated edge at the other but like all shadows there was no depth. It seems that the Curlew Sandpiper flew, at least for you, out of necessity. I suspect that you bank on "happy misunderstandings" as wind beneath those wings. You swing your spoke wheeled in"comprehensible" and "inexpressible" into little barricades between you and life with its "mysterious existences", forgetting all along that the Mansion is Glass after all and quite transparent to any willing looker. Reminds of a scene from the Outlaw Josey Wales; the Indian holds up a piece of hard rock candy and says "it ain't for eating just looking through." Yea we read with the eyes and Buddy does his dammest to keep us from tasting with our mouths. It's not inexpressible or nonsensible but rather monosensible, akin to that flat shadow. Daniel > Bruce, I never knew that mold was so social, > circling the wagons around its > besieged community. We knew you were mad but afraid > too? > > I never quite know what you are accusing me of. --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 14:17:03 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KIH3c10163 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:17:03 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 10:10:59 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 10:10:59 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4085599E.CC38.5F11.000] Content-Identifier: 0622F408559A3002 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4085599E.CC38.5F11.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 20 Apr 2004 10:10:59 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Does anyone know where this phrase originates please? Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I've found these versions, but no info on where it originates: Blessed be he who is called a big wheel, for he goeth around in circles. Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae. Blessed are those who go around in circles, for they shall become big wheels. Blessed are those that run around in circles, for they shall be called Big Wheels. Blessed are those who are called "big wheels" for they shall go around and around in circles. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 16:24:18 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KKOIr16361 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:18 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 11:31:00 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 11:31:00 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40856C5F.CC38.6E31.000] Content-Identifier: 02F3840856C64003 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40856C5F.CC38.6E31.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 20 Apr 2004 11:31:00 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Oldie and Moldie and not so Boldie Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org siddartha. it's by herman hesse. hell damn fart to you all! >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/20/04 11:19AM >>> Bruce, I noticed your not-a-key casting a peculiar shadow. It was oval on one end and had a serrated edge at the other but like all shadows there was no depth. It seems that the Curlew Sandpiper flew, at least for you, out of necessity. I suspect that you bank on "happy misunderstandings" as wind beneath those wings. You swing your spoke wheeled in"comprehensible" and "inexpressible" into little barricades between you and life with its "mysterious existences", forgetting all along that the Mansion is Glass after all and quite transparent to any willing looker. Reminds of a scene from the Outlaw Josey Wales; the Indian holds up a piece of hard rock candy and says "it ain't for eating just looking through." Yea we read with the eyes and Buddy does his dammest to keep us from tasting with our mouths. It's not inexpressible or nonsensible but rather monosensible, akin to that flat shadow. Daniel > Bruce, I never knew that mold was so social, > circling the wagons around its > besieged community. We knew you were mad but afraid > too? > > I never quite know what you are accusing me of. --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 16:24:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KKOIK16367 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40858233.1080106@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:04:03 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Oldie References: <20040419161715.68498.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040419161715.68498.qmail@web60908.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Sounds pretty reasonable, Bruce. It should also be recognized that an absolute split between "eastern" and "western" literature is pretty difficult to maintain. The upanishads were being read in Germany and England by the 18th/19th century, and even well before then writers like Spinoza were arguing for a cosmos very similar to that of the Upanishads. It's possible to migrate to an "eastern" kind of belief without having read any eastern literature, so that once it is read, it very much resonates. Schopenhauer had an experience something like this, being introduced to the Vedas after he'd started _The World as Will and Idea_. Jim City Cabin wrote: >--- James Rovira wrote: > > > >>I also get the impression that his reading in >>eastern lit articulated >>what he'd already believed for quite some time. >> >> >> >> > >It always slightly floors me to remember that JDS >didn't complete his freshmen year of college. That >all of this extensive reading was done on his own. > >To make a distinction between lit and philosophy: > >I think he originally read western literature (all of >the writers he loved in 1951 were western). I guess >prior to '53 one sees evidence of reading some western >religious texts (and psychology). But the whole >eastern thing (philosophy and literature) becomes >evident in '53 with Teddy. (Though, come to think of >it, I vaguely recall from the old days someone saying >that "inverted forest" is a Buddhist term!) > >I think his religious vision is predominately eastern. > Or more accurately, it offered him a framework for >his own spiritual expression which is a blending of >the two, with poetry the harmonizing factor. > >--Bruce > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 16:24:17 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KKOHJ16345 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:17 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 11:29:10 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 20 Apr 2004 11:29:10 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 40856BE7.CC38.6DB5.000] Content-Identifier: 02B1940856BF6005 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(1), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(6), (1)(0)(10021)(7)(1)(0)(100) Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <40856BE7.CC38.6DB5.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 20 Apr 2004 11:29:10 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil Subject: RE: Oldie, Moldie a la modie, I'll have another bite of Seymour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by dont.panix.com id i3KIV0b10821 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org i dunno. i think when you take things from something, you really shouldn't. you know? i reread it a year or two ago, can't remember, but, i remember that it moved me. made me walk different all of a sudden. like it woke me out of a dream. yes, the golden times. my memory says that my shoes made me "jump faster and run higher." dark orange. 75 degrees. lightening bugs and dinnertime. your accounts of running so fast, they remind me of running barefoot on the beach and thinking that shoes slowed me down. also, reminded me of a part in "on the road", where kerouac tells neal of looking out a car window and slicing off the tops of mountains and fence posts with a scythe or laser or something, and neal tells him of how he would picture himself running right beside the car, leaping over ten fence posts at a time, running all the way out to the top of a mountain and back to the side of the car in time to duck under some obstacle or another. anyways, i've only liked books that gave me things. not those that took me away from life. gave me escape. there was no point to your message. so i wrote this all in response. my friend once said the point of life is fun. i never wanted to accept that, until one day, when i couldn't understand why i'd want to ever refute it. just because i didn't think of it? i'll have another bite of arange, as we said in new jersey. none of this oh-range crap. >>> daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil 04/20/04 11:19AM >>> Bruce, I wasn't going to write this but what the hell. Damm it Bruce, you made me re-read Seymour, An Introduction Sunday night. All I really remembered from my first reading was the marble playing and the fastest boy stuff. Those two things clung to me mostly because they were flash backs to my boyhood days. I remember that golden time at the end of each day, especially during the summer. Frankly, I still have them occasionally. We played all sorts of games including marbles, my Dad whistling for us to come in (he always whistled for us since we could be practically in the next county but that two fingers in the mouth summons could carry pretty far). We knew that ignoring that whistle was costly but the golden time was worth it. I have never been afraid of the dark and we often played until we squeezed every golden dew drop out of that time before we came home, often requiring a long walk in the glowing darkness. Now days when that golden time comes on me I relive those boyhood evenings all over again, all the details but especially the smells, some times wet rich soil, dinners cooking, or pi on smoke drifting about. I too thought (for a little while) that I was the fastest kid in the world. Something in those canvas high top converse, especially new ones, convinced me of that. For about four years of my boyhood we lived in the house at the same time my dad was building it. We had no water, no electricity, no gas, no indoor plumbing. We had kerosene lamps, and hauled all our water, took baths in a big cajet . my Mom cooked on a wood stove where we heated our bath water. I hated those cold nights requiring a visit to the out house. We had no tv but we had a battery powered radio, we played Monopoly on occasion and just about every card game in Hoyle's. Sometimes, we just talked. My Mom told stories, real and made up ones past down or made up on the spot. I remember quite a few of them even now. My dad told endless Jokes, real jokes with proper punch lines. He also read to us sometimes. We always seemed to have relatives over at all hours of the night, and many cousins slept over frequently. Sometimes in the summer we would drag all our bedding outdoors to sleep under the sky talking till the wee hours of the morning, I mean all of us, Mom, Dad etc. But one thing we did almost ritually was listen to the Drama that came on the radio, Macabre theater, Planet X, Cisco Kid. This was way past the golden age of radio but for some reason they were still on the air when I was a kid. Anyway, I had the most vivid dreams then (I still do but not as frequently) I dreamed that I could run, I mean run like the wind (Buddy-esque speed baby). The funny thing is that I mix up my speed dreams with my winged converse memories. One blurs into the other but the only way I discovered the dream from the memory is by their smell. The memories were from that golden time and they always had a smell and so my images are redeemed. I keep them separate the way a good collector separates his baseball cards from his Star Wars cards. Anyway, it's your fault Bruce, after re-reading Seymour, An Introduction my estimation of Jerome sank a couple of notches. I still consider him one of the best but after re-reading , the golden time accounts are the only ones I care to retain. Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 16:24:17 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KKOHG16355 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40856CF6.4080605@drew.edu> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:33:26 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Does anyone know where this phrase originates please? References: <4085599E.CC38.5F11.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> In-Reply-To: <4085599E.CC38.5F11.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org I'm having an Earth Wind and Fire moment right now... Jim ANELLO Michael J wrote: >I've found these versions, but no info on where it originates: > >Blessed be he who is called a big wheel, for he goeth around in circles. >Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae. >Blessed are those who go around in circles, for they shall become big wheels. >Blessed are those that run around in circles, for they shall be called Big >Wheels. >Blessed are those who are called "big wheels" for they shall go around and >around in circles. > > > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 20 16:24:18 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3KKOID16362 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <07d001c4270c$3ccbda60$c300a8c0@outlookind> From: "Sundeep Dougal" To: References: <20040419160102.777.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:48:17 +0530 Organization: Outlook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.195 X-Return-Path: sundeep@outlookindia.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org > > Did you also read "For > > Rupert -- with No > > Promises"? When Esquire published it, they put a > > sidebar in that Dear Bruce and Tim, and others, Could any of you please let me know if any of this or other JDS-related stuff from Lish is compiled between covers and available in book-shops? I have a friend visiting India from NY who has been offering to get me any book I might be looking for, and I thought I just might make it a little interesting for her to really have to look at short notice! Thanks, Sonny - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 21 14:06:42 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3LI6g025437 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040420212551.34315.qmail@web60906.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:25:51 -0700 (PDT) From: City Cabin Subject: RE: Oldie, Moldie a la modie, I'll have another bite of Seymour To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404201745.i3KHjVBQ029357@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Daniel, I'm sorry "Seymour: An Introduction" left you feeling short-changed. I very much enjoyed the part of your post about your childhood. --Bruce __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 21 22:21:46 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3M2Lks17840 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404212307.i3LN7twW003534@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Oldie, Moldie a la modie, I'll have another bite of Seymour Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 23:07:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Thanks, I wasn't short changed, I still have the book on my shelf (and a shabby copy in one of my desk drawers here at work). Daniel Daniel, I'm sorry "Seymour: An Introduction" left you feeling short-changed. I very much enjoyed the part of your post about your childhood. --Bruce - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 21 22:21:45 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3M2LjJ17839 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:21:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Omlor@aol.com Message-ID: <15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:30:53 EDT Subject: Fists in the night To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd_boundary" X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --part1_15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there, For all you Shane McGowan fans (and I know you're out there), it seems our boy was caught in a bit of a mess (again). It sounds like a case of gun-fighter syndrome (or Wild Bill syndrome for you Deadwood watchers), a couple of young guys thinking they can take the old man and make a name for themselves. Or maybe Shane said something less than friendly (it's been known to happen). Anyway, here's the story: Pogues Frontman Attacked In London Legendary Pogues singer (and drinker) Shane McGowan was attacked and seriously injured while in a London pub last night (April 20), during what onlookers described as a "A totally unprovoked attack on a defenseless man." McGowan was drinking in The Joiners Arms in Soho and was attacked up in the toilets, where reports claim two men hit him with a metal bar, and kicked and punched the 46 year old ex-Pogues singer. Speaking to the Mirror, one onlooker said, "This was a totally unprovoked attack on a defenseless man. He was just having a quiet drink with his mates - and had been chatting to one of the blokes who jumped him." McGowan's friends chased the two alleged attackers and held on to them until police arrived. Police have confirmed two men aged 19 and 20 are being questioned. The singer was taken to the St Thomas' Hospital nearby with cuts and a fractured cheekbone. Heave away, haul away, --John PS: Saw Vol. 2 of Kill Bill last night. Loved it's enthusiasm for the cheap movies of my youth. Loved the camera-work homage to all that was cheesy about them. 'Course I loved the choreography of blood that was Vol. 1, too. Who needs character or plot? I smiled for two hours and laughed out loud more than once. --part1_15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there,

For all you Shane McGowan fans (and I know you're out there), it seems o= ur boy was caught in a bit of a mess (again).  It sounds like a case of= gun-fighter syndrome (or Wild Bill syndrome for you Deadwood watchers), a c= ouple of young guys thinking they can take the old man and make a name for t= hemselves.  Or maybe Shane said something less than friendly (it's been= known to happen).

Anyway, here's the story:

Pogues Frontman Attacked In London

Legendary Pogues singer (and drinker) Shane McGowan was attacked and
seriously injured while in a London pub last night (April 20), during
what onlookers described as a "A totally unprovoked attack on a
defenseless man."

McGowan was drinking in The Joiners Arms in Soho and was attacked up in
the toilets, where reports claim two men hit him with a metal bar, and
kicked and punched the 46 year old ex-Pogues singer.

Speaking to the Mirror, one onlooker said, "This was a totally
unprovoked attack on a defenseless man. He was just having a quiet drink
with his mates - and had been chatting to one of the blokes who jumped
him."=20

McGowan's friends chased the two alleged attackers
and held on to them until police arrived. Police have confirmed two men
aged 19 and 20 are being questioned.

The singer was taken to the St Thomas' Hospital nearby with cuts and a
fractured cheekbone.=20

Heave away, haul away,

--John

PS: Saw Vol. 2 of Kill Bill last night.  Loved it's enthusiasm for=20= the cheap movies of my youth.  Loved the camera-work homage to all that= was cheesy about them.  'Course I loved the choreography of blood that= was Vol. 1, too.  Who needs character or plot?  I smiled for two=20= hours and laughed out loud more than once.


--part1_15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd_boundary-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 21 22:42:50 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3M2goA18859 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:42:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: Fists in the night Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:34:15 -0400 Message-Id: <20040422023415.16674@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd@aol.com> References: <15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd@aol.com> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Apr 21, 2004, Omlor@aol.com said: >For all you Shane McGowan fans (and I know you're out there), it seems our >boy was caught in a bit of a mess (again). It sounds like a case of gun- >fighter >syndrome (or Wild Bill syndrome for you Deadwood watchers), a couple of young >guys thinking they can take the old man and make a name for themselves. Or >maybe Shane said something less than friendly (it's been known to happen). Oh, boy. With Shane and his "teeth" (such as they are, in name only), there's only a thin line between flossing and getting slugged in the face. I wouldn't be surprised if the bathroom were littered with Irish teeth the way Times Square is wall-to-wall confetti ten minutes into the new year. I can only hope his voice is intact. I'm not worried about his mind. It's so pickled, it is guaranteed to survive most any impact. >Pogues Frontman Attacked In London > >Legendary Pogues singer (and drinker) Shane McGowan was attacked and >seriously injured while in a London pub last night (April 20), Hmmm, someone ought to mention that Shane was asked to depart the Pogues, and created his own band, called the Popes. Well, we shall hope for the best. I'll light one of the dogs as a sacrificial lamb in Shane's honor. >PS: Saw Vol. 2 of Kill Bill last night. Loved it's enthusiasm for the cheap >movies of my youth. Loved the camera-work homage to all that was cheesy >about them. 'Course I loved the choreography of blood that was Vol. 1, too. Who >needs character or plot? I smiled for two hours and laughed out loud >more than once. I've been eager to see it, but cannot do so until I see Vol. 1. On a video excursion tonight, after a lovely leisurely dinner with former co- worker, I found that all the usual haunts were sold out. I had to go to a cheesy music shop in the armpit of the Village to finally locate a copy. I shall try to squeeze it in tonight before I pass from consciousness into sleepy bliss.... Go, Uma! --tim P.S. This is a guaranteed Salinger-free message, I regret. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 21 22:42:50 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3M2go518860 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:42:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Re: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:42:15 -0400 Message-Id: <20040422024215.8035@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <07d001c4270c$3ccbda60$c300a8c0@outlookind> References: <07d001c4270c$3ccbda60$c300a8c0@outlookind> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Wed, Apr 21, 2004, sundeep@outlookindia.com said: >Could any of you please let me know if any of this or other JDS-related >stuff from Lish is compiled between covers and available in book-shops? I >have a friend visiting India from NY who has been offering to get me any >book I might be looking for, and I thought I just might make it a little >interesting for her to really have to look at short notice! Sonny! I'm certain that Bruce can answer more readily than I, but the two stories appear in a collection called WHAT I KNOW SO FAR. According to the web site abebooks.com (used and rare books), a paperback copy is available for as little as $1 US. I don't know if your friend can order it here and ship it to you. If not, mail me privately and I will order it for you and somehow mail it. I've never sent mail to India, but I assume I can learn how. The sidebar stuff is available only in the Esquire article itself, which I no longer possess. If you want to investigate this between us, don't even hesitate to send me mail. It's always good to hear from you, even better to serve you. --t - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 22 16:44:48 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3MKimb07333 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404221520.i3MFK3cG007891@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: Fists in the night Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 15:20:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org For a second there I thought it was about Scottie and until I read the "old man" reference; where are you Scottie, by the way? Watching Kill Bill Vol. 2? Daniel For all you Shane McGowan fans (and I know you're out there), it seems our boy was caught in a bit of a mess (again). It sounds like a case of gun-fighter syndrome (or Wild Bill syndrome for you Deadwood watchers), a couple of young guys thinking they can take the old man and make a name for themselves. Or maybe Shane said something less than friendly (it's been known to happen). --John PS: Saw Vol. 2 of Kill Bill last night. Loved it's enthusiasm for the cheap movies of my youth. Loved the camera-work homage to all that was cheesy about them. 'Course I loved the choreography of blood that was Vol. 1, too. Who needs character or plot? I smiled for two hours and laughed out loud more than once. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 22 16:44:49 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3MKinb07342 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:44:49 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 22 Apr 2004 08:22:06 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 22 Apr 2004 08:22:06 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 4087E317.CC38.0937.000] Content-Identifier: 066B94087E31E001 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <4087E317.CC38.0937.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 22 Apr 2004 08:22:06 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, tim@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Salinger, if you're out there, go to this site and have at it: http://www.subservientchicken.com/ - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 22 16:44:47 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3MKilO07323 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000e01c42840$684cd420$2ba57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <15c.3281f0ae.2db833fd@aol.com> Subject: Re: Fists in the night Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:03:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ah, these rollicking, bollicking Celtic poets! McShane .... Thomas .... Behan .... Kavanagh .... yerra sure, the line stretches from McDaid's to Eternity. With their vomit-stained vests & pee-scented pants, their bleary wit & sawdust-floor wisdom. What lyrical jewels. What precious primitives. And so deeply appreciated, too, by the gentry at the other end of the bar: those fastidious fuckers from Manhatten & Hampstead, the ones with the neatly pressed slacks & the quizzical smiles, the knowing nods & patronising head pats. One of these days, chaps, you must try the sad reality. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 23 09:40:43 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3NDehw25801 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:29:03 -0400 From: Omlor@aol.com To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: Fists in the night MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <10A18127.6DFEE4BC.00010341@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 24.73.45.214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Scottie, Uh, I think you'll find that some of us "over here" have had rather personal contact with "the sad reality" in all its devastation. We're not romanticizing, merely noting the nastiness that recently befell a favorite singer. But thanks for trying to turn it into some sort of argument, it reminded me why I love you so. Have one on me, --John - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 23 09:40:43 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3NDehT25796 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404222114.i3MLEnCn012519@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: "For Jerome--With Love and Kisses" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:14:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Shitty wino Irish scribblers/wailers, a chicken in need of a wrung neck, and the serialized slaying of Guillermo. Damm, this list is becoming more convenient than a Wal-Mart Super center. Daniel Salinger, if you're out there, go to this site and have at it: Mike - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 23 20:17:52 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3O0Hqf25468 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:17:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [193.198.146.165] X-Originating-Email: [anabuneta@hotmail.com] X-Sender: anabuneta@hotmail.com From: "ana" To: References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> <40813CDD.4090802@drew.edu> Subject: Re: More about translation Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 00:52:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Apr 2004 23:01:48.0248 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4CA6D80:01C42986] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org > Ha, yeah, that's annoying, isn't it? I like history... that's not annoying part. for me annoying part is studying all grammar of old slavic language and so on... and all differences and all examples ... all everything.... boy, I hated that. I erased everything as soon as I passed those exams. I guess it was sort of defensive mechanism. I wanted to save my brain from all those unnecesserya informations I know I'll never use. > I read your entire post (both times) again congratulations. :) I didn't read them :)) so that makes you the only one :) > Regarding the Carroll interview, it's really difficult to make any > inferences just based on the fact that he made reference to > "Serbo-croatian" -- probably picked it up from a Serbian :). yeah, those serbians :))) > That was my point: bias is unavoidable in any > discussion of language. hm, that was your point? hm I guess it depend which theory you take as more important then other(s) (when you are discussing language), what are your criteria... just shortly back to McLennan- he didn't realy show what are possible theories on serbian and croatian as one/two language(s) (beside talking that it was called serbo-croatian in one short time), their arguments and his possible choice... he just mixed all: nationalism, language, and so on... without giving complet picture of anything/everything > recognized dialect of English -- Standard Written English, with all its > bland pronunciations -- isn't spoken by anyone except people on > television and radio and people teaching English in classrooms, and not > even completely there. Everyone actually speaks different dialects, a yeah. I guess that goes everywhere. I would just put in your group of people who speak standard, those with great nationalism (+ knowledge of Standard)... I remember one 75 year old fascist I lived with in Italy who spoke 'clear italian'... and didn't allow any mix with dialects. He would even watch TV and make comment on their language... for some time it was funny for me, untile I didn't realize who sick he was... but that's the other story. > But one's opinion, we agree, does depend on one sympathies. I would > also say that among most people one's sympathies run parallel to one's > nationality, but not in all cases. Since you probably don't disagree > with that either, then how are you expecting me to respond? :) :))) this is discussible. :) ana ><><>< - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 25 20:38:09 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3Q0c9l20410 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004101c429c7$0679e8e0$4da57dc2@j8l6n9> From: "Scottie Bowman" To: References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> <40813CDD.4090802@drew.edu> Subject: Re: More about translation Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:39:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org '... I remember one 75 year old fascist ...who spoke 'clear italian' didn't allow any mix with dialects. He would even watch TV and make comment ... it was funny for me, untile I didn't realize who sick he was... ' That wasn't 'clear Italian', that was my native, Dundee-posh-English. Scottie B. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 25 20:38:10 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3Q0cAf20415 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <408A6229.6060602@drew.edu> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:48:41 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: More about translation References: <406ADE2F.8080200@drew.edu> <407558B5.5070903@drew.edu> <407E88DB.3090006@drew.edu> <40813CDD.4090802@drew.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Yeah...I think bias will be evident in the criteria selected, and then further evident in the data that fits in to the criteria selected, and the data that's considered irrelevant. ana wrote: I guess it depend which theory you take as more important then other(s) >(when you are discussing language), what are your criteria... >just shortly back to McLennan- he didn't realy show what are possible >theories on serbian and croatian as one/two language(s) (beside talking that >it was called serbo-croatian in one short time), their arguments and his >possible choice... he just mixed all: nationalism, language, and so on... >without giving complet picture of anything/everything > > > > >>recognized dialect of English -- Standard Written English, with all its >>bland pronunciations -- isn't spoken by anyone except people on >>television and radio and people teaching English in classrooms, and not >>even completely there. Everyone actually speaks different dialects, a >> >> > >yeah. I guess that goes everywhere. I would just put in your group of people >who speak standard, those with great nationalism (+ knowledge of >Standard)... I remember one 75 year old fascist I lived with in Italy who >spoke 'clear italian'... and didn't allow any mix with dialects. He would >even watch TV and make comment on their language... for some time it was >funny for me, untile I didn't realize who sick he was... but that's the >other story. > > Oh...but that's just it. I'm saying No One actually speaks Standard Written English, with the exception of a few teachers (from grade school to college) who are weird in precisely the same way your Italian friend was weird, and a few others who are motivated by a similar pride. I would say that here, as elsewhere, some dialects are associated with upper classes while others are associated with lower classes, and that when this is recognized people get Very Uncomfortable. But none of these dialects are quite the same as SWE. Jim - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 25 20:38:09 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3Q0c9L20407 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:38:09 -0400 (EDT) From: LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com Message-ID: <158.3338204b.2dbb59c7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:48:55 EDT Subject: New to the List! To: bananafish@roughdraft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1082785735" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5005 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org -------------------------------1082785735 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, and see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it. -Matt -------------------------------1082785735 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and= introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, an= d see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it.
 
 
-Matt
-------------------------------1082785735-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Sun Apr 25 22:23:31 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3Q2NV824322 for bananafish-outgoing; Sun, 25 Apr 2004 22:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040426015930.50590.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:59:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: Re: New to the List! To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <158.3338204b.2dbb59c7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Welcome to the List, Matt. You will find that digging Salinger is only the beginning ... Best, Cecilia. --- LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com wrote: > Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and > introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, > and see > how this works. Okay well i guess thats it. > > > -Matt > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25˘ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 26 07:37:36 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3QBbae17096 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00a001c42b77$ec2d4970$df20fb51@GEORGES> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Val=E9rie_Aron?= To: References: <158.3338204b.2dbb59c7@aol.com> Subject: Re: New to the List! Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 12:19:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0099_01C42B88.A8832490" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C42B88.A8832490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome! what a cool nickname. Where is Gofer? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com=20 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org=20 Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:48 AM Subject: New to the List! Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello = and introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would = Join, and see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it.=20 -Matt ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C42B88.A8832490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome! what a cool nickname. Where is Gofer?
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 = 7:48=20 AM
Subject: New to the List!

Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say = hello and=20 introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would = Join, and=20 see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it.
 
 
-Matt
------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C42B88.A8832490-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 26 21:55:34 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3R1tYl01005 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:55:34 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta Salem-MTA1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 26 Apr 2004 08:08:36 -0700 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; Relayed; 26 Apr 2004 08:08:36 -0700 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=or.gov/; 408D25F2.CC38.374A.000] Content-Identifier: 05711408D25F4007 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Michael.J.Anello@state.or.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <408D25F2.CC38.374A.000*/c=us/admd=/prmd=or.gov/o=HR/ou=gwise/s=Anello/g=Michael/i=J/@MHS> Date: 26 Apr 2004 08:08:36 -0700 From: ANELLO Michael J To: bananafish@roughdraft.org, LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com Subject: Re: New to the List! Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org are you matt salinger? and, if you are, i've got a question for you. -mike >>> LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com 04/25/04 05:39PM >>> Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, and see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it. -Matt - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Mon Apr 26 21:55:34 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3R1tYZ01000 for bananafish-outgoing; Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404261439.i3QEd6CS018663@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: New to the List! Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:39:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Matt, welcome aboard. I have no idea what Cecilia's talking about. Daniel Welcome to the List, Matt. You will find that digging Salinger is only the beginning ... Best, Cecilia. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 27 06:33:54 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3RAXsH23279 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040427024433.70498.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:44:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: RE: New to the List! To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404261439.i3QEd6CS018663@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org That is because it is I, Cecilia, the inscrutable. You should always have no idea what I am talking about. This, this is the lot of men. --C. > Matt, welcome aboard. I have no idea what Cecilia's talking about. > Daniel __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Tue Apr 27 06:33:55 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3RAXtg23280 for bananafish-outgoing; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 06:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040427073407.47745.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:34:07 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Lucy=20Pearson?= Subject: Re: bananafish-digest V1 #1046 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404270156.i3R1uEY01055@dont.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-595490838-1083051247=:46805" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org --0-595490838-1083051247=:46805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Matt, Welcome to the bananafish pool. It gets a bit murky in here from time to time but it's a good place to be. Lucy-Ruth Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:48:55 EDT From: LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com Subject: New to the List! - -------------------------------1082785735 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, and see how this works. Okay well i guess thats it. - -Matt --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now --0-595490838-1083051247=:46805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Matt,
 
Welcome to the bananafish pool. It gets a bit murky in here from time to time but it's a good place to be.
 
Lucy-Ruth



Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:48:55 EDT
From: LuvBoatCaptin@aol.com
Subject: New to the List!

- -------------------------------1082785735
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Everyone. I am new to this list so i just wanted to say hello and
introduce myself. I'm Matt and I dig Salinger so I thought i would Join, and see
how this works. Okay well i guess thats it.


- -Matt

Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now --0-595490838-1083051247=:46805-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 28 23:44:52 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3T3iq628835 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404271708.i3RH87hx005277@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: New to the List! Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 17:08:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This is refreshing Cecilia. Out of the closet, off the porch with the swing rocking gently and empty. Does the microphone feel like it was made for your hand alone? I am sorry, I am only asking as a man from among the lot. Daniel That is because it is I, Cecilia, the inscrutable. You should always have no idea what I am talking about. This, this is the lot of men. --C. > Matt, welcome aboard. I have no idea what Cecilia's talking about. > Daniel - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Wed Apr 28 23:44:51 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3T3ipC28830 for bananafish-outgoing; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002301c42c66$788efe60$0101a8c0@Monster> From: "Kenneth" To: Subject: Papa Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 10:46:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01C42C44.F0E7AE10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [141.153.168.88] at Tue, 27 Apr 2004 09:46:46 -0500 Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C42C44.F0E7AE10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any thoughts about Hemingway's "My Old Man" and its possible = relationship to Catcher? I'm trying to take Salinger at his word when he = apparently denies any influence, but having a hard time of it. In a way, = it would be nice to tie three (almost) generations of great authors = together through three related stories: Anderson to Hemingway to = Salinger. (Okay, we'll leave Papa and JD "great" and change 'ol Sherwood = to "active".) But I've got this persistent nightmare of Hemingway in = France poring over chapter three of Catcher and making structural = alterations while Salinger looks on. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C42C44.F0E7AE10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any thoughts about Hemingway's "My Old = Man"=20 and its possible relationship to Catcher? I'm trying to take = Salinger=20 at his word when he apparently denies any influence, but having a hard = time of=20 it. In a way, it would be nice to tie three (almost) generations of = great=20 authors together through three related stories: Anderson to = Hemingway to=20 Salinger. (Okay, we'll leave Papa and JD "great" and change 'ol = Sherwood to=20 "active".) But I've got this persistent nightmare of Hemingway in France = poring=20 over chapter three of Catcher and making structural alterations while = Salinger=20 looks on.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C42C44.F0E7AE10-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 29 00:27:42 2004 Received: by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3T4RgU00537 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:27:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Tim O'Connor" To: bananafish Subject: Bananafish Housekeeping & Nicht Inschruttenischen Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:24:57 -0400 Message-Id: <20040429042457.19413@mail.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <200404271708.i3RH87hx005277@theseus.peterson.af.mil> References: <200404271708.i3RH87hx005277@theseus.peterson.af.mil> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2.1 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org On Tue, Apr 27, 2004, daniel.yocum@Peterson.af.mil said: >This is refreshing Cecilia. Out of the closet, off the porch with the swing >rocking gently and empty. Does the microphone feel like it was made for >your hand alone? I am sorry, I am only asking as a man from among the lot. >Daniel > >>That is because it is I, Cecilia, the inscrutable. You should always have >>no idea what I am talking about. This, this is the lot of men. Three little details, from least to most amusing. First: Those of you who are new here, please note that at present, because of the glorious riff-raff who send us Nigerian hoax mail and body-enlargement schemes and discounts on narcotics, this list is currently on manual mode. (At least while I await delivery of my narcotics order.) It means that your posts may be delayed by a little or a lot, depending on how busy I may be. I try to release messages as promptly as possible, but sometimes I'm tied up with work, and at other times I just cannot concentrate long enough to separate body-enhancement messages from the Bananafish-enhancement messages. So, if your message doesn't show up quickly, it means that I am either asleep (a rare occasion), or working (a common occurrence for those of us who hose down sidewalks for a living, after having worked as entertainers on the Kungsholm), or riding the subway in search of lost time. Or a lost dime. I'm never very certain. Second: I am *woefully* behind on the archives -- nothing up yet from 2004, but I'm working on it ... expect your pearls of wisdom to be up and indexed by the end of the week or weekend. Or as a friend has said: soon or Soon. Third, and most significant, we simply must face the Cecilia issue: As my people say, Cecilia ist die Grossen Nicht Inschruttenischenluftwaffen (Tschuss). So, prepare to curtsy in direct proportion to her inscrutability, you mortals among us. Or as Yul Brynner remarked in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (little dreaming that he was prophesying the ascendence of Cecilia from her hiding spot amidst farm implements and corn fields): So let it be written. So let it be DONE. Cecilia has spoken, and I now creep offstage in search of the Kungsholm, where I hear there is an opening on the staff due to recent retirements. --tim o'connor - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 29 00:27:41 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3T4Rfc00531 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20040429041915.25390.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:19:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Cecilia Baader Subject: RE: New to the List! To: bananafish@roughdraft.org In-Reply-To: <200404271708.i3RH87hx005277@theseus.peterson.af.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Why so upset, Daniel? You don't want to give up the microphone? Ah. Don't get so excited, little man. I was only teasing. --C. --- Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE wrote: > This is refreshing Cecilia. Out of the closet, off the porch with the > swing rocking gently and empty. Does the microphone feel like it > was made for your hand alone? I am sorry, I am only asking as a > man from among the lot. > Daniel > > That is because it is I, Cecilia, the inscrutable. You should always > have > no idea what I am talking about. This, this is the lot of men. > > --C. > > > Matt, welcome aboard. I have no idea what Cecilia's talking about. > > Daniel > - > * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message > * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 29 23:16:41 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3U3Gfk22066 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:16:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Originating-IP: [193.198.132.222] X-Originating-Email: [anabuneta@hotmail.com] X-Sender: anabuneta@hotmail.com From: "ana" To: "BananaFish" Subject: DaDa Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:48:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C42E09.C9BFF380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Apr 2004 14:49:11.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[22356DD0:01C42DF9] Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C42E09.C9BFF380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found this text on internet, so just sending it, in case anybody is = interested...=20 and, if anybody has any good reference on Dada, Zenit (as yugo-dada), = Kharms + Oberiu, ..., I would be very grateful if you could e-mail it to = me. thanx btw Jim, you know what's good about Serbian and Croatian as two = languages? We can always write in CV that we know Croatian, Serbian, = Bosnian, Slovenian... it just sounds so good. :) specially if we apply = for something in USA (as we believe most of the Americans doesn't even = know where is Croatia :)), it sounds like we are all polyglots. :))=20 regarding dialects in Croatia, they are not that much associated with = classes like in US.=20 ><><>< ab http://www.sociology.org/content/vol004.001/locher.html Electronic Journal of Sociology (1999) ISSN: 1198 3655 Unacknowledged Roots and Blatant Imitation:=20 Postmodernism and the Dada Movement David Locher=20 Dept. of Social Sciences=20 Missouri Southern State College=20 locher-d@mail.mssc.edu=20 Abstract This paper is an attempt to stimulate thought and discourse toward = postmodern social theory. The writings of Baudrillard and Lyotard are = deconstructed with a focus on their conceptualization of the postmodern. = The author argues that there really is no such epoch as the postmodern = era. Direct quotes from Baudrillard, Lyotard, and several Dadaists are = used to support these claims. This paper is not an attack on the logic = or internal consistency of postmodernism, but rather addresses the = validity of claims about the unique and original nature of postmodern = thought itself. This lack of originality points to a greater question = about the validity of the concept of a postmodern era.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "...to respect all individualities in their folly of the moment, whether = serious, fearful, timid, ardent, vigorous, decided or enthusiastic; to = strip one's church of every useless and unwieldy accessory; to spew out = like a luminous cascade any offensive or loving thought, or to cherish = it - with the lively satisfaction that it's all precisely the same = thing..." (tzara- dada manifesto, 1918.) ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C42E09.C9BFF380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found this text on internet, so just = sending it,=20 in case anybody is interested...
and, if anybody has any good reference = on Dada,=20 Zenit (as yugo-dada), Kharms + Oberiu, ..., I would be very grateful if = you=20 could e-mail it to me. thanx
 
 
btw Jim, you know what's good about = Serbian and=20 Croatian as two languages? We can always write in CV that we know = Croatian,=20 Serbian, Bosnian, Slovenian... it just sounds so good. :) specially if = we apply=20 for something in USA (as we believe most of the Americans doesn't even = know=20 where is Croatia :)), it sounds like we are all polyglots. :)) =
regarding dialects in Croatia, they = are not=20 that much associated with classes like in US.
 
><><><
ab
 
 
http://w= ww.sociology.org/content/vol004.001/locher.html
 
Electronic = Journal of=20 Sociology (1999)

ISSN: 1198=20 3655

Unacknowledged Roots and Blatant = Imitation:=20
Postmodernism and the Dada Movement

David=20 Locher
Dept. of Social Sciences
Missouri Southern State College =
locher-d@mail.mssc.edu=20

 Abstract

This paper is = an attempt to=20 stimulate thought and discourse toward postmodern social theory. The = writings of=20 Baudrillard and Lyotard are deconstructed with a focus on their=20 conceptualization of the postmodern. The author argues that there really = is no=20 such epoch as the postmodern era. Direct quotes from Baudrillard, = Lyotard, and=20 several Dadaists are used to support these claims. This paper is not an = attack=20 on the logic or internal consistency of postmodernism, but rather = addresses the=20 validity of claims about the unique and original nature of postmodern = thought=20 itself. This lack of originality points to a greater question about the = validity=20 of the concept of a postmodern era.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

"...to=20 respect all individualities in their folly of the moment, whether = serious,=20 fearful, timid, ardent, vigorous, decided or enthusiastic; to strip = one's church=20 of every useless and unwieldy accessory; to spew out like a luminous = cascade any=20 offensive or loving thought, or to cherish it - with the lively = satisfaction=20 that it's all precisely the same thing..."

(tzara-=20 dada manifesto, 1918.)

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C42E09.C9BFF380-- - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Thu Apr 29 23:16:41 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3U3Gff22061 for bananafish-outgoing; Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <200404291435.i3TEZ8BZ015104@theseus.peterson.af.mil> From: Yocum Daniel R Civ 21 CES/CEOE To: "'bananafish@roughdraft.org'" Subject: RE: New to the List! Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:35:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Give up the microphone? I've never been a Wise Child and the microphone is all yours since I carry around a box to stand on (all us little men do) and a well exercised diaphragm (thanks to the Corps) to carry my voice. C, any time you feel the need to excite a man again just let me know. Daniel Why so upset, Daniel? You don't want to give up the microphone? Ah. Don't get so excited, little man. I was only teasing. --C. - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH From oconnort@panix.com Fri Apr 30 12:58:03 2004 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by dont.panix.com (8.11.6p2-a/8.8.8/PanixLC1.7) id i3UGw3C27545 for bananafish-outgoing; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 12:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4092550D.70107@drew.edu> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:30:53 -0400 From: James Rovira User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, de, de-at, de-de, fr-fr, es-pr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Subject: Re: DaDa References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bananafish@roughdraft.org Ha...that's sure how I'd treat it, then, if I were in your position :). No, no, not serbo-croatian...I know Serbian AND Croatian. The article you posted isn't exactly groundbreaking: postmodernism has been seen as a footnote to modernism for quite some time now by quite a few people. The word "postmodern," from what I understand, was coined not long after the word "modernism" was used to describe the scientism of people like Freud, Marx, and Darwin -- I think in the 1920s or so. May have been in Germany. Need to look this up. I vaguely remember that the Catholic Church used the word "modernism" and Lutheran theologians said, "hey, we're already past that...we're postmodern." I think part of the problem is that the words "modernism" are being applied to different things here. In philosophy it's used to describe Freud/Marx/Darwin/etc. and the metanarrative of human existence and development they built up in place of the narratives previously provided by religion. So "postmodernism" in Baudrillard and Lytoard, say, would be a reversal of those along with all other metanarratives. But "modernism" in literary studies refers to a specific group of authors: Eliot, Woolf, HD, Pound, Lewis, etc., and these authors were talking about how It's All Fallen Apart On Us from the very start. It's possible the article you posted is really pointing out these two different uses of the word: modernism in literature dealt with postmodern themes to begin with. To further complicate things, "modernism" in art and political science have different referents too. The "modern state," some argue, is hundreds of years old, while others say it just dates from the 18-19th centuries. Since the categories were artificial to begin with...so what? I'd rather understand the phiilosophers and the poets themselves. If the categories help (they generally do), great. When they don't, well, I ignore them. Jim ana wrote: > btw Jim, you know what's good about Serbian and Croatian as two > languages? We can always write in CV that we know Croatian, Serbian, > Bosnian, Slovenian... it just sounds so good. :) specially if we apply > for something in USA (as we believe most of the Americans doesn't even > know where is Croatia :)), it sounds like we are all polyglots. :)) > Regarding dialects in Croatia, they are not that much associated with > classes like in US. > > > ><><>< > ab > - * Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message * UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH