Re: Responses

When I referenced the destruction of the temple I didn't intend to say that the
damage was limited to that, but the quotation from Josephus was rather nice.
You could have gone on and quoted his passage about an insane rage gripping the
inhabitants of Jerusalem so that they started killing each other. I always
wondered where the heck that came from and why it was there -- it sounds like
an apocryphal story, but at the same time, Josephus sounds like an eyewitness at
times. If you have any light to shed on that, please do.

The dissemination of Biblical texts throughout the Roman Empire and Asia Minor
isn't really a matter at all of the literacy of the average Jewish household.
The NT records, in the book of Acts, that Paul found a Jewish synagogue in
virtually every city he evangelized, and the synagogue was the place where he
began his evangelizing, actually -- he even asserted in the epistle to the
Romans that the Gospel is for the Jews first, then later for the Greeks.
Historians assert that Rome in Paul's day had 70 synagogues -- since a synagogue
only required 12 Jewish men to start with, that's not unbelievable.

So the prevalence of Jewish synagogues throughout the Roman Empire would require
the widespread dissemination of Jewish texts throughout the Roman Empire as
well. Which texts were disseminated consistently would be, I think, where you'd
find the first evidence of a canon. I suspect that since Josephus wrote in
Greek he was representing the canon as understood by a Hellenic Jew, but I'm not
sure about this and haven't followed up. I don't think it's a coincidence that
the LXX came to be in order to meet the needs of hellenic Jews in Egypt...

I don't think Josephus' words are all that ambiguous about the existence of a
canon at least when he was writing. There's a point where it's more of a
stretch to deny the existence of a canon of sorts than to affirm it, recognizing
there are still problems with that affirmation.

Jim

"L. Manning Vines" wrote:

> I'm sorry about the delay in response; my free minutes have been sharply
> limited by work, and I've enjoyed what few I've had away from the list.
> Only three more weeks of this life dominated by work, and then I return to
> school and study!
>
> Jim said:
> << The comparison in time difference I was referencing was about 100-200
> years preceding Christ vs. 60 after Christ. The nature of the beast we're
> talking about seems to require some time lapse[. . . .] The destruction of
> the temple was a terrible loss, but the Jewish synagogue predated the
> temple, and texts were disseminated (alright, in Greek :) ) all over the
> Roman Empire and probably throughout Palestine. [. . .] 20 years -- from the
> destruction of the temple to around the time of Josephus' writing -- just
> seems too soon. It is possible that the destruction of the temple caused a
> crisis that made a fixed canon necessary, but then the decisions made at
> that point would probably be reflective of attitudes the community already
> held for some time. >>
>
> The temple was not the extent of the damage; along with the command to
> destroy the temple, it is said, Nero ordered the destruction of all
> Jerusalem. Ancient reports indicate more than a million Jews killed.
> Jerusalem was razed. The Jewish state was decimated, really, until the 20th
> century. Some activity continued, long enough for at least one more
> significant rebellion in the next century, but Jerusalem as it was came to
> an abrupt end. In a short period, Jewish strains and sects as big and
> influentual as the Sadducees simply disappeared, leaving behind only the
> Pharisees.
>
> From Josephus, The Jewish Wars (Or, The Wars of the Jews)
> Book Seven, Chapter One, Section One
>
> The Entire City Of Jerusalem Was Demolished, Excepting Three Towers
>
> Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because
> there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not
> have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave
> orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should
> leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that
> is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as
> enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford
> a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared,
> in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well
> fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the
> wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up
> to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came
> thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem
> came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise
> of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.
>
> The wall that was spared, which, "enclosed the city on the west side," is,
> of course, the western wall, or wailing wall, which stands today.
>
> How well disseminated the texts were throughout the Roman Empire and
> Palestine probably depends on the question of literacy that was raised
> before. It is not clear to me that Hebrew copies of the texts would have
> been in many households. Shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem does
> still seem to me a reasonably probable date for the coming of a more
> standardized text -- what I was before calling canonization -- or for the
> transformation from "the Bible are" to "the Bible is."
>
> The book I quoted was written around 75 C.E. Josephus was there, which, as
> I said before, makes more peculiar his comments which SEEM to indicate a
> canon well-defined in form and substance. He should know about substantial
> variation, even if only by knowing the Greek translations. Whatever the
> date for standardization, Josephus must have known of the non-standard,
> which sheds a strange light on his comments.
>
> -robbie
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