Re: Seymour an Introduction

I think I read the '86 edition, and in particular took issue with French's
_pronouncement_ (not argument, mind you, _pronouncement_) that Holden could
not have possibly been in some kind of a sanitorium. He simply passed
judgment upon that idea without much support from text, an especially
unforgivable mistake since there is plenty of textual justification for
that belief.

I just don't remember what he said about the Glass stories, but I don't
remember being bothered as much by other parts of the book. If I went back
and reread I'd probably agree with you.

I really like your discussion Joyce/Salinger, esp. pitting Nine Stories
against Dubliners and Catcher against Portrait. I don't think Salinger
quite stands his ground even on that basis -- as perfect as I think Pretty
Mouth and Esme are, they don't quite compare to The Dead in what they're
attempting and actually accomplish. They do compare well with Araby,
though. Same thing with Catcher. I get the feeling in Portrait that Joyce
does indeed describe the complete "curve of an emotion" that started in
early childhood and culminated in late adolescence. I feel, by comparison,
that I'm getting a snapshot of Holden, and it's not at all clear what he's
going to become.

I also think you have a good point about Salinger stopping at 46 where
Joyce wrote a little bit beyond that age, but if Hapworth is any indication
of the future of Salinger's fiction, I'd tend to think we're not missing
much. There's good reason, I think, he's not publishing anymore.

Jim

yeah, the Pound/Joyce letters are pretty interesting. Joyce tended to be
just a little oversensitive to Pound's pretty reasonable criticism, I
think. Woolf on Joyce is a bit more ambivalent than is commonly thought --
in Modern Fiction she lists Joyce, along with herself, as one important
figure in the new movement of literature, and in her notes written during
her initial reading of Ulysses (published in _The Gender of Modernism_,
Bonnie Kime Scott, ed.) you definitely see both positive comments and the
seeds of future disparaging comments. I tend to think much of her criticism
of Joyce sprung from her classism -- which makes Woolf a rather ridiculous
figure in her criticism of Joyce sometimes, as much as I respect Woolf.

Kim Johnson wrote:

> --- Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu> wrote:
> > I can't freaking stand French's introduction to
> > Salinger
> > criticism....bleah.
>
> i think french wrote two if not three editions of his
> book. the first in '63 (perhaps slightly revised in
> '76) and the last with a new title, 'salinger
> revisited' in '86. i think in this one he repudiates
> much in the '63 book. i found the handling of
> 'catcher' here quite good; felt he didn't do justice
> to the glass stories.
>
> > Kim -- Ulysses was, I'm pretty sure, released
> > serially before it was
> > published as an entire novel. Many early
> > assessments were indeed based
> > upon a very limited part of the text -- a text which
> > was later revised
> > from the earlier published versions before put into
> > book form. Many,
> > many people had a very hard time with it. But many
> > people recognized
> > its genius as well.
>
> i think you're right about the serially publication of
> much (if not all) of 'ulysses'. believe it was ezra
> pound who placed chapters with a couple of courageous
> women who ran 'the dial'. pound's letters to joyce
> and vice versa are quite interesting during that
> period.
>
> syvlia beach certainly gets a round of applause for
> publishing the book. a lot of publishers turned tail.
> i know the woolfs' hogarth press did. and v. woolf
> after reading it sneered at joyce.
>
> > Since Ulysses was based upon Homer's Odyssey, tried
> > to keep a unity of
> > place a time, and HAD TO end with Penelope, there's
> > a good argument for
> > not really being able to judge Ulysses based upon
> > the first five
> > chapters.
> >
> > There's really no such argument for the Glass family
> > corpus. There's no
> > coherent organizing principle that I can see (or
> > have heard alluded to)
> > governing the entire Glass family saga -- it's not
> > like one part really
> > needs all of it to make any sense as part of a
> > coherent whole.
> > Furthermore, Salinger really "rewrote" Glass history
> > after the fact.
> > It's like calling Buddy the author of Catcher, as
> > you allude to. It's a
> > neat trick pulled in after the fact.
> >
> > But this hardly has the structure and organization
> > of a work like
> > Ulysses.
>
> i agree in part but the glass saga isn't a single
> novel. my guess is that we've seen only the tip of
> the iceberg. what's in the vault might sink
> salinger's reputation, or save it.
>
> > I'd just give up on comparing Salinger to Joyce :).
> > Salinger will lose
> > every time ;). Joyce abandoned the short story
> > format to go on to write
> > a Ulysses. Salinger abandoned that to write a S:AI.
> > There's just no
> > comparison.
> >
>
> oh, i'd never say salinger could go 15 rounds with
> joyce. though i'd put up '9 stories' against
> 'dubliners', and 'the catcher' against 'portrait'.
> but after that jds gones down. yet, we're judging a
> writer who has stopped at age 46. the unpublished
> work might totally change salinger's stature. it's
> possible there's more than just more glass stories.
> or: the unpublished glass stories might be more to the
> critics' liking (since they make or break
> reputations). or, the unpublished writings might prove
> jds went off the rails and became a complete
> embarassment. we just don't know at this point. and
> might never...
>
> kim
>
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