Re: Seymour an Introduction

jim,

i didn't remember the pronouncement. but definitely
agree with you that holden _is_ in a sanitorium.
(french does seem to get territorial; 'my book the
first full-length treatment, etc')

thanks for your extensive remarks re joyce and woolf.
very enjoyable to read.

kim

--- Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu> wrote:
> I think I read the '86 edition, and in particular
> took issue with French's
> _pronouncement_ (not argument, mind you,
> _pronouncement_) that Holden could
> not have possibly been in some kind of a sanitorium.
> He simply passed
> judgment upon that idea without much support from
> text, an especially
> unforgivable mistake since there is plenty of
> textual justification for
> that belief.
>
> I just don't remember what he said about the Glass
> stories, but I don't
> remember being bothered as much by other parts of
> the book. If I went back
> and reread I'd probably agree with you.
>
> I really like your discussion Joyce/Salinger, esp.
> pitting Nine Stories
> against Dubliners and Catcher against Portrait. I
> don't think Salinger
> quite stands his ground even on that basis -- as
> perfect as I think Pretty
> Mouth and Esme are, they don't quite compare to The
> Dead in what they're
> attempting and actually accomplish. They do compare
> well with Araby,
> though. Same thing with Catcher. I get the feeling
> in Portrait that Joyce
> does indeed describe the complete "curve of an
> emotion" that started in
> early childhood and culminated in late adolescence.
> I feel, by comparison,
> that I'm getting a snapshot of Holden, and it's not
> at all clear what he's
> going to become.
>
> I also think you have a good point about Salinger
> stopping at 46 where
> Joyce wrote a little bit beyond that age, but if
> Hapworth is any indication
> of the future of Salinger's fiction, I'd tend to
> think we're not missing
> much. There's good reason, I think, he's not
> publishing anymore.
>
> Jim
>
> yeah, the Pound/Joyce letters are pretty
> interesting. Joyce tended to be
> just a little oversensitive to Pound's pretty
> reasonable criticism, I
> think. Woolf on Joyce is a bit more ambivalent than
> is commonly thought --
> in Modern Fiction she lists Joyce, along with
> herself, as one important
> figure in the new movement of literature, and in her
> notes written during
> her initial reading of Ulysses (published in _The
> Gender of Modernism_,
> Bonnie Kime Scott, ed.) you definitely see both
> positive comments and the
> seeds of future disparaging comments. I tend to
> think much of her criticism
> of Joyce sprung from her classism -- which makes
> Woolf a rather ridiculous
> figure in her criticism of Joyce sometimes, as much
> as I respect Woolf.
>
> Kim Johnson wrote:
>
> > --- Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu> wrote:
> > > I can't freaking stand French's introduction to
> > > Salinger
> > > criticism....bleah.
> >
> > i think french wrote two if not three editions of
> his
> > book. the first in '63 (perhaps slightly revised
> in
> > '76) and the last with a new title, 'salinger
> > revisited' in '86. i think in this one he
> repudiates
> > much in the '63 book. i found the handling of
> > 'catcher' here quite good; felt he didn't do
> justice
> > to the glass stories.
> >
> > > Kim -- Ulysses was, I'm pretty sure, released
> > > serially before it was
> > > published as an entire novel. Many early
> > > assessments were indeed based
> > > upon a very limited part of the text -- a text
> which
> > > was later revised
> > > from the earlier published versions before put
> into
> > > book form. Many,
> > > many people had a very hard time with it. But
> many
> > > people recognized
> > > its genius as well.
> >
> > i think you're right about the serially
> publication of
> > much (if not all) of 'ulysses'. believe it was
> ezra
> > pound who placed chapters with a couple of
> courageous
> > women who ran 'the dial'. pound's letters to
> joyce
> > and vice versa are quite interesting during that
> > period.
> >
> > syvlia beach certainly gets a round of applause
> for
> > publishing the book. a lot of publishers turned
> tail.
> > i know the woolfs' hogarth press did. and v.
> woolf
> > after reading it sneered at joyce.
> >
> > > Since Ulysses was based upon Homer's Odyssey,
> tried
> > > to keep a unity of
> > > place a time, and HAD TO end with Penelope,
> there's
> > > a good argument for
> > > not really being able to judge Ulysses based
> upon
> > > the first five
> > > chapters.
> > >
> > > There's really no such argument for the Glass
> family
> > > corpus. There's no
> > > coherent organizing principle that I can see (or
> > > have heard alluded to)
> > > governing the entire Glass family saga -- it's
> not
> > > like one part really
> > > needs all of it to make any sense as part of a
> > > coherent whole.
> > > Furthermore, Salinger really "rewrote" Glass
> history
> > > after the fact.
> > > It's like calling Buddy the author of Catcher,
> as
> > > you allude to. It's a
> > > neat trick pulled in after the fact.
> > >
> > > But this hardly has the structure and
> organization
> > > of a work like
> > > Ulysses.
> >
> > i agree in part but the glass saga isn't a single
> > novel. my guess is that we've seen only the tip
> of
> > the iceberg. what's in the vault might sink
> > salinger's reputation, or save it.
> >
> > > I'd just give up on comparing Salinger to Joyce
> :).
> > > Salinger will lose
> > > every time ;). Joyce abandoned the short story
> > > format to go on to write
> > > a Ulysses. Salinger abandoned that to write a
> S:AI.
> > > There's just no
> > > comparison.
> > >
> >
> > oh, i'd never say salinger could go 15 rounds with
> > joyce. though i'd put up '9 stories' against
> > 'dubliners', and 'the catcher' against 'portrait'.
> > but after that jds gones down. yet, we're judging
> a
> > writer who has stopped at age 46. the unpublished
> > work might totally change salinger's stature. it's
> > possible there's more than just more glass
> stories.
> > or: the unpublished glass stories might be more to
> the
> > critics' liking (since they make or break
> > reputations). or, the unpublished writings might
> prove
> > jds went off the rails and became a complete
> > embarassment. we just don't know at this point.
> and
> > might never...
> >
> > kim
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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Received on Wed Aug 14 14:42:43 2002