Re: Seymour an Introduction

heh...never thought of it as being territorial :). but yeah, that's
probably what it is...French is lifting his leg and spraying on his own
little corner of western lit :)

Jim

Kim Johnson wrote:

> jim,
>
> i didn't remember the pronouncement. but definitely
> agree with you that holden _is_ in a sanitorium.
> (french does seem to get territorial; 'my book the
> first full-length treatment, etc')
>
> thanks for your extensive remarks re joyce and woolf.
> very enjoyable to read.
>
> kim
>
> --- Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu> wrote:
> > I think I read the '86 edition, and in particular
> > took issue with French's
> > _pronouncement_ (not argument, mind you,
> > _pronouncement_) that Holden could
> > not have possibly been in some kind of a sanitorium.
> > He simply passed
> > judgment upon that idea without much support from
> > text, an especially
> > unforgivable mistake since there is plenty of
> > textual justification for
> > that belief.
> >
> > I just don't remember what he said about the Glass
> > stories, but I don't
> > remember being bothered as much by other parts of
> > the book. If I went back
> > and reread I'd probably agree with you.
> >
> > I really like your discussion Joyce/Salinger, esp.
> > pitting Nine Stories
> > against Dubliners and Catcher against Portrait. I
> > don't think Salinger
> > quite stands his ground even on that basis -- as
> > perfect as I think Pretty
> > Mouth and Esme are, they don't quite compare to The
> > Dead in what they're
> > attempting and actually accomplish. They do compare
> > well with Araby,
> > though. Same thing with Catcher. I get the feeling
> > in Portrait that Joyce
> > does indeed describe the complete "curve of an
> > emotion" that started in
> > early childhood and culminated in late adolescence.
> > I feel, by comparison,
> > that I'm getting a snapshot of Holden, and it's not
> > at all clear what he's
> > going to become.
> >
> > I also think you have a good point about Salinger
> > stopping at 46 where
> > Joyce wrote a little bit beyond that age, but if
> > Hapworth is any indication
> > of the future of Salinger's fiction, I'd tend to
> > think we're not missing
> > much. There's good reason, I think, he's not
> > publishing anymore.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > yeah, the Pound/Joyce letters are pretty
> > interesting. Joyce tended to be
> > just a little oversensitive to Pound's pretty
> > reasonable criticism, I
> > think. Woolf on Joyce is a bit more ambivalent than
> > is commonly thought --
> > in Modern Fiction she lists Joyce, along with
> > herself, as one important
> > figure in the new movement of literature, and in her
> > notes written during
> > her initial reading of Ulysses (published in _The
> > Gender of Modernism_,
> > Bonnie Kime Scott, ed.) you definitely see both
> > positive comments and the
> > seeds of future disparaging comments. I tend to
> > think much of her criticism
> > of Joyce sprung from her classism -- which makes
> > Woolf a rather ridiculous
> > figure in her criticism of Joyce sometimes, as much
> > as I respect Woolf.
> >
> > Kim Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > --- Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu> wrote:
> > > > I can't freaking stand French's introduction to
> > > > Salinger
> > > > criticism....bleah.
> > >
> > > i think french wrote two if not three editions of
> > his
> > > book. the first in '63 (perhaps slightly revised
> > in
> > > '76) and the last with a new title, 'salinger
> > > revisited' in '86. i think in this one he
> > repudiates
> > > much in the '63 book. i found the handling of
> > > 'catcher' here quite good; felt he didn't do
> > justice
> > > to the glass stories.
> > >
> > > > Kim -- Ulysses was, I'm pretty sure, released
> > > > serially before it was
> > > > published as an entire novel. Many early
> > > > assessments were indeed based
> > > > upon a very limited part of the text -- a text
> > which
> > > > was later revised
> > > > from the earlier published versions before put
> > into
> > > > book form. Many,
> > > > many people had a very hard time with it. But
> > many
> > > > people recognized
> > > > its genius as well.
> > >
> > > i think you're right about the serially
> > publication of
> > > much (if not all) of 'ulysses'. believe it was
> > ezra
> > > pound who placed chapters with a couple of
> > courageous
> > > women who ran 'the dial'. pound's letters to
> > joyce
> > > and vice versa are quite interesting during that
> > > period.
> > >
> > > syvlia beach certainly gets a round of applause
> > for
> > > publishing the book. a lot of publishers turned
> > tail.
> > > i know the woolfs' hogarth press did. and v.
> > woolf
> > > after reading it sneered at joyce.
> > >
> > > > Since Ulysses was based upon Homer's Odyssey,
> > tried
> > > > to keep a unity of
> > > > place a time, and HAD TO end with Penelope,
> > there's
> > > > a good argument for
> > > > not really being able to judge Ulysses based
> > upon
> > > > the first five
> > > > chapters.
> > > >
> > > > There's really no such argument for the Glass
> > family
> > > > corpus. There's no
> > > > coherent organizing principle that I can see (or
> > > > have heard alluded to)
> > > > governing the entire Glass family saga -- it's
> > not
> > > > like one part really
> > > > needs all of it to make any sense as part of a
> > > > coherent whole.
> > > > Furthermore, Salinger really "rewrote" Glass
> > history
> > > > after the fact.
> > > > It's like calling Buddy the author of Catcher,
> > as
> > > > you allude to. It's a
> > > > neat trick pulled in after the fact.
> > > >
> > > > But this hardly has the structure and
> > organization
> > > > of a work like
> > > > Ulysses.
> > >
> > > i agree in part but the glass saga isn't a single
> > > novel. my guess is that we've seen only the tip
> > of
> > > the iceberg. what's in the vault might sink
> > > salinger's reputation, or save it.
> > >
> > > > I'd just give up on comparing Salinger to Joyce
> > :).
> > > > Salinger will lose
> > > > every time ;). Joyce abandoned the short story
> > > > format to go on to write
> > > > a Ulysses. Salinger abandoned that to write a
> > S:AI.
> > > > There's just no
> > > > comparison.
> > > >
> > >
> > > oh, i'd never say salinger could go 15 rounds with
> > > joyce. though i'd put up '9 stories' against
> > > 'dubliners', and 'the catcher' against 'portrait'.
> > > but after that jds gones down. yet, we're judging
> > a
> > > writer who has stopped at age 46. the unpublished
> > > work might totally change salinger's stature. it's
> > > possible there's more than just more glass
> > stories.
> > > or: the unpublished glass stories might be more to
> > the
> > > critics' liking (since they make or break
> > > reputations). or, the unpublished writings might
> > prove
> > > jds went off the rails and became a complete
> > > embarassment. we just don't know at this point.
> > and
> > > might never...
> > >
> > > kim
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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