Re: intelligence of the author vs. intelligence of the characters

From: Jim Rovira <jrovira@drew.edu>
Date: Fri Aug 30 2002 - 13:51:58 EDT

I don't think you know who are out of MFA programs and who are not :).

Here's a list of graduates from the Iowa Writer's Workshop -- tell me if
you think any of them are accomplished like Salinger is accomplished:

"The program has produced a dozen winners of the Pulitzer Prize (most
recently Jorie Graham in poetry,1996), three recent US Poet Laureates (Mark
Strand, Mona Van Duyn and Rita Dove), and numerous winners of the National
Book Award and other major literary honors. Noted graduates include:
Flannery O'Connor, John Irving, Robert Bly, Tracy Kidder, Allan Gurganus,
W.P. Kinsella, Wallace Stegner, William Stafford, Bharati Mukherjee, Jane
Smiley, Thom Jones, Bob Shacochis, Margaret Walker, Andre Dubus, Phil
Levine, Donald Justice, Raymond Carver and T. Coraghessan Boyle" -- from
http://www.uiowa.edu/~iww/iww2.htm

 S:AI is hardly a literary "accomplishment" -- it's really rather obscure
for everyone but diehard Salinger fans. If it weren't for _Catcher in the
Rye_ it's really unlikely that any of Salinger's work would be as
constantly republished as it is today -- making him one of many authors who
published in The New Yorker, Atlantic Monthly, Saturday Evening Post...not
too different, really, from a moderately successful MFA degree holder.

How many "successful" authors have written a _Catcher in the Rye_? And how
many could write more than one?

A more significant comparison would be between the quality of stuff that
comes from authors out of MFA programs and the stuff from authors who don't
-- their relative literary merit, publishing history, etc. One thing
you're overlooking with the MFA program is that most of the better ones put
aspiring authors in direct contact with already fairly successful authors.
This also can lead to contact with literary agents as well as an inside
look at what gets published and how to get it published.

The same website for the Iowa Writer's Workship lists these authors as
visiting faculty:

"Faculty luminaries have included: Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Philip Roth, Raymond
Carver, Donald Justice, John Cheever, Ne lson Algren, John Berryman, Robert
Lowell, Robert Penn Warren, Jose Donoso, U.S. Poet Laureate Robert Hass."

and when it first started these authors helped teach as well:

"From the outset the program enjoyed a series of distinguished visitors,
among them Robert Frost, Stephen Vincent Benet, and Robert Penn Warren, who
would lecture and stay for several weeks to discuss students' work. In
addition, John Berryman, Robert Lowell, and others came to teach for a full
year." -- from http://www.uiowa.edu/~iww/bro-intr.htm

Ultimately, I'd agree with you that a program can't teach someone who
really can't write how to write (but these people usually can't get in),
but it's a terrible mistake to think that it has nothing to offer someone
who can.

Jim

Kim Johnson wrote:

> i wonder if all of these mfa programs are for naught? or self-defeating?
> or? they've been around for 30+ years, with their workshop craft courses
> leading to a degree, and i'm not sure that i can name one graduate whose
> published work is any where near the level of salinger's. even the
> concept of the young writer--doesn't 'the new yorker' use 40 or under for
> their summer fiction choices--doesn't bode well against salinger's
> accomplishments by that age. (for by forty he had published up through
> the story 'seymour: an introduction', i.e., nearly all of his work.
> which forty year old today has an 'esme,' a 'catcher', a 'franny', a
> 'raise high...' (plus some others) between covers?) i guess i'm just
> blathering along saying that the accomplishments of the legion of mfa-ers
> don't seem to me to be anywhere near the accomplishments of salinger. or
> maybe the recent literary landscape is so cluttered with books that one
> can't identify the 3 or 4 real writ ers of the last quarter century. or
> maybe it's just a time of a lot of crafted excellence but no genius.
>
> kim
>
> Jim Rovira wrote:
>
> Oh, I'm using "accomplished" in the same sense that I consider
> Salinger
> to be "accomplished" -- in the sense of the literary merit of
> his works,
> ability to influence readers, etc. There's only one "Catcher in
> the
> Rye," of course, but then Salinger only wrote on himself :).
> Most
> authors don't.
>
> Jim
>
> Kim Johnson wrote:
>
> > jim,
> >
> > i grant you that the writing factories are in full swing and
> much of
> > the product is 'accomplished'. that's just the problem: it's
> > 'accomplished'.
> >
> > kim
> >
> > Jim Rovira wrote:
> >
> > You'd be surprised at what MFA programs have put out...the
> > Iowa Writer's
> > Workship by itself has a pretty long list of accomplished
> > writers that have
> > come through their program...
> >
> > that being said, I don't think anyone can "teach" anyone how
> > ; to be a great
> > fiction writer.
> >
> > But there's no substitute for intelligent readers....
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Kim Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > interesting to note that salinger did not include
> > wordsworth in his list
> > > of writers he loves. in fact, in 'seymour: an
> > introduction', buddy lumps
> > > wordsworth with browning as miss overman's old swains.
> > >
> > > re: iq and genius--thanks, cecilia, for your extended
> > email on this
> > > subject. i was just throwing out the number cause it stuck
> > in my mind,
> > > and that salinger, on that test, didn't score off the
> > board a la seymour
> > > or zooey or teddy. i would say that sa! linger is a genius
> > of a writer,
> > > without a doubt. and, most importantly, that he had the
> > genius to
> > > protect and nuture his gift from an early age. it's quite
> > apparent he> > wasn't going to be helped by staying in the
> educational
> > system. (just the
> > > opposite.) it seems he only needed one writing course from
> > whit burnett,
> > > and that was it. (i don't think today's mfa degrees are
> > producing too
> > > many salingers.)
> > >
> > > kim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
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Received on Fri Aug 30 13:52:00 2002

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