Re: letter to Tim

Sundeep Dougal (holden@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in)
Fri, 06 Aug 1999 20:06:58 +0530 

> I couldn't agree with you more Tim.  Virtually every post I've seen
from
> Scottie has a sneering tone which is unpleasant.  Maybe he thinks he
is
> being funny but I for one ain't laughing.  His posts come across as a
> form of intellectual bullying.

This image is hilarious indeed -- Scottie as the list-bully.

IMESHO, a warm, cozy, campside chat is all very fine, but without an
occasional sneer, jeer or cheer, it would be a dull place indeed. Not to
mention that it would be highly inappropriate to a list devoted to
_JDS's_ writing.

Besides, even if one agrees to the charge of a sneery tone, isn't it an
insult to the intellects of the people on the list, really, to suggest
that they could be bullied by it? I would think that the people here are
more than capable of giving as good as they get, without it being
reduced to unpleasantness or ugliness.

> And I detect a distinctly nervous tone
> in the posts of those people who reply to his mail along the lines of
> 'oh your such a funny crabby guy'.  It reminded me a bit of how
certain
> people would try to pacify the bully in the playground.

I would, au contraire, suggest that all the nervous tones that we see
around us are largely exaggerated dramatisations of people's responses.
Is it not possible to view these as exchange of playful banter or jousts
with someone you have known for some time and are fond of?

> Ideally a mail list should be a welcoming place where people can
> exchange ideas without being ridiculed.  I've seen other lists
> degenerate into places where everyone ends up flaming everyone else
and
> it gets very ugly and puts people off joining and causes people to
> leave.

It is sad if people actually leave because of flames, and Tim of course
would know more about people's responses to him off-list, but IMESHO,
people should be able to learn to defend their ideas or opinions if they
voice them. Fear of ridicule, if it indeed is there, would, or at least
should, IMESHO, sharpen thinking skills or how to defend a stance.

I have great regard and respect for Tim and in all these years of being
on the list, have never seen him get so upset, so I am sure there must
be off-list messages to him for him to react so strongly.

I also can empathise with his feelings because a new entrant to the list
perhaps may be a bit befuddled by Scottie's sardonic tone, but one
would hope that the flurry of other messages should help make the
context a little clearer. Maybe we should ask Jocelyn what she thought?

But at the same time, I really am intrigued by other complaints to Tim.
For, frankly, in the last 2 or 3 weeks that I have been reading up the
messages on the list rather regularly, there's been no ugliness or
nastiness -- or it's been so subtle that I have been totally oblivious
to it.

Almost all of Scottie's messages tend to be self-deprecatory as well,
but that may just be my reading of them. I would go on to say that this
infact has been a period of unusal boisterousness, bon vivant and
bonhomie, if I may be indulged some alliterative flourishes.

I have always thought that all the list disagreements, and real or
perceived bullying or ridicule, could be tackled quite well on the list
itself. Why should people feel the need to trouble Tim off-line, when
he even otherwise has more than enough on his plate?

If there is a problem, one could just speak up on the list, and IMESHO,
the rest of the participants aren't exactly lily-livered, bashful or
inarticulate either that they would be wall-flowers or indifferent and
not join in, then. If one doesn't find something funny, couldn't one
either ridicule it oneself, or just ignore it?  Or contest and rebut it,
the way Tim just did?

But, if people just can't lighten up and/or if they do not find
something funny, and/or if they do not wish to indulge in matching
one real or perceived ridicule in a poste with an appropriate riposte,
could they not just ignore that thread or the, if I may use the term,
ridiculor or bully? Wouldn't it be ridiculous -- or perhaps, ludicrous?
-- for the person so ignored to go on _ridiculing_ or _bullying_?

Or could they not just express their discomfort on the list (like Colin
just did?)? It at least gives people the opportunity to speak their mind
or offer another perspective rather than for Tim to be inundated with
peevish messages.

Tim, my best wishes for a speedy recovery and I hope you will be up and
about and on your feet soon.

I also hope that you or Colin or anybody else do not find this post
offensive or mean-spirited, which is not the intent at all. I quite like
Colin's messages to the list and look forward to seeing his
contributions to the list, and maybe at some time to even exchange an
idea or two.

Just some dry thoughts of a dry brain in a humid season.

Sonny,
offering his less than 2 cents