Subject: Re: Certainly
From: Jim Rovira (jrovira@drew.edu)
Date: Tue Jan 08 2002 - 23:07:17 GMT
Suzanne, loving people doesn't mean supporting them, necessarily, in all
their bad habits :).
Jim
Suzanne Morine wrote:
>
> At 11:13 AM 1/8/2002 -0500, Cecilia Baader wrote:
> >- --- Chris Kubica <ckubica@home.com> wrote:
> > > I suppose it has something to do with Holden ALSO being a phony,
> > > sometimes, without knowing it, eh? Or being phony with Phoebs,
> > > one of the kids near HC's crazy cliff?
>
> >[..] The best example is that scene in the bar where he runs into D.B.'s
> >girlfriend and her date. He talks to them, asks them all the expected
> >phoney things, even though all the while he's justifying this behavior by
> >telling himself that this is what you have to do in order to live in this
> >world. Holden's angry, but not angry enough to shuck off the coil of all
> >social customs.
> >
> >He does things like that throughout the novel, but the difference between
> >Holden and the rest of the phoneys is that he's self-aware. [..] That
> >person may be
> >wanting to stop kids from falling off a cliff in a wheat field and is just
> >making conversation while he works out the details.
>
> I agree with all of this.
>
> > You can't make the
> >differentiation because you can't ever really know.
>
> You can have an opinion, you can use your own sense of things. Of course,
> you might be wrong. And I really like the point about the people who, like
> Holden, are working things out.
>
> I mean, there really are people out there to watch out for. Love everyone:
> ptooey. Sometimes that really just encourages self-centered people's
> selfishness. That is worse than saying nothing.
>
> >I mean, look at what
> >a little pain in the twasane Holden is to the people around him. Nobody
> >would guess in a million years what's going on inside his head. A person
> >who made the decision to hate all the phoneys would certainly lump Holden
> >in with them and be wrong, no? So then that begs the conclusion that you
> >can't hate anybody. You've got to love everybody no matter what they're
> >like, sort of like Seymour's fat lady, because maybe we're all Holdens
> >inside.
>
> I disagree with this. You're generalizing as much as the "hate all phonies"
> policy would. I think Holden is rightfully angry at the phonies who are
> clearly not trying and who confidently disregard the human/frail side of
> life. Commander Blop was going to crush Holden's hand just to seem cool.
> Holden didn't cross that line. Holden stood up and made chit chat and said,
> "nice to've met you," just like Cmdr Blop, but I think he didn't attempt to
> crush anyone's hand. Holden and Blop are not alike.
>
> Certainly you can say they're both phonies. It all depends on where you
> draw the line. I think that Holden himself would be able to sense that
> Holden was struggling along and didn't want to go around hurting people or
> lying to them or not knowing who he was. I think people with discernment
> (such as himself) can tell that. The hat check girl could. The hat check
> girl was nice and personable to him. I somehow doubt she'd have given a
> second look at Commander Blop, the headmaster, D.B.'s ex-girlfriend, or the
> hot-shot lawyer who wouldn't know if he was saving guy's lives for the
> congratulations or for the inherent value he'd be contributing in that.
>
> My 2 cents,
> Suzanne
>
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