Subject: Re: Certainly
From: Suzanne Morine (suzannem@dimensional.com)
Date: Tue Jan 08 2002 - 20:28:14 GMT
At 11:13 AM 1/8/2002 -0500, Cecilia Baader wrote:
>- --- Chris Kubica <ckubica@home.com> wrote:
> > I suppose it has something to do with Holden ALSO being a phony,
> > sometimes, without knowing it, eh? Or being phony with Phoebs,
> > one of the kids near HC's crazy cliff?
>[..] The best example is that scene in the bar where he runs into D.B.'s
>girlfriend and her date. He talks to them, asks them all the expected
>phoney things, even though all the while he's justifying this behavior by
>telling himself that this is what you have to do in order to live in this
>world. Holden's angry, but not angry enough to shuck off the coil of all
>social customs.
>
>He does things like that throughout the novel, but the difference between
>Holden and the rest of the phoneys is that he's self-aware. [..] That
>person may be
>wanting to stop kids from falling off a cliff in a wheat field and is just
>making conversation while he works out the details.
I agree with all of this.
> You can't make the
>differentiation because you can't ever really know.
You can have an opinion, you can use your own sense of things. Of course,
you might be wrong. And I really like the point about the people who, like
Holden, are working things out.
I mean, there really are people out there to watch out for. Love everyone:
ptooey. Sometimes that really just encourages self-centered people's
selfishness. That is worse than saying nothing.
>I mean, look at what
>a little pain in the twasane Holden is to the people around him. Nobody
>would guess in a million years what's going on inside his head. A person
>who made the decision to hate all the phoneys would certainly lump Holden
>in with them and be wrong, no? So then that begs the conclusion that you
>can't hate anybody. You've got to love everybody no matter what they're
>like, sort of like Seymour's fat lady, because maybe we're all Holdens
>inside.
I disagree with this. You're generalizing as much as the "hate all phonies"
policy would. I think Holden is rightfully angry at the phonies who are
clearly not trying and who confidently disregard the human/frail side of
life. Commander Blop was going to crush Holden's hand just to seem cool.
Holden didn't cross that line. Holden stood up and made chit chat and said,
"nice to've met you," just like Cmdr Blop, but I think he didn't attempt to
crush anyone's hand. Holden and Blop are not alike.
Certainly you can say they're both phonies. It all depends on where you
draw the line. I think that Holden himself would be able to sense that
Holden was struggling along and didn't want to go around hurting people or
lying to them or not knowing who he was. I think people with discernment
(such as himself) can tell that. The hat check girl could. The hat check
girl was nice and personable to him. I somehow doubt she'd have given a
second look at Commander Blop, the headmaster, D.B.'s ex-girlfriend, or the
hot-shot lawyer who wouldn't know if he was saving guy's lives for the
congratulations or for the inherent value he'd be contributing in that.
My 2 cents,
Suzanne
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