In a message dated 98-01-08 14:49:56 EST, you write: << And here is how you LOSE an argument: You ignore it and result to name calling (sunshine and francis). Benighted and infantile comments like that are why I usually don't respond to these lists often, unless I'm really compelled to. I have been an observer mostly and enjoyed many of the intellectual discussions I've read. Concomitantly, I have deleted in bulk when the arguments were as dull as this one has become. Of course, since I don't respont often, I am considered an outsider and will be censured and alienated the moment I speak up. C'est la vie. Still, I hold nothing against you, Mr. Hochman, understanding how tempting it can be to resort to perjorative comments in such a protected environment. Have a nice day. >> The way I see it, every man (or woman) is entitled to his or her own opinion. Myself, I am not at all familiar with Ginsberg, I believe I missed the movement by a year or two (I am a sophmore in Highschool) but that is beside the point (really, that was originally central to the point, but the point has changed...strange how that happens). I have been a member of the group for only a few weeks, but have made several posts already. In NO way did I ever at any point feel alienated or censured (correected sometimes, but hey, how do we learn?). I encourage you to speak up with your opinions, no matter how conformed or outlandish they may seem to our fellow Bananafishers. I look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future. Thanx -Noah