Re: unless ye become as little children


Subject: Re: unless ye become as little children
From: Jim Rovira (jrovira@drew.edu)
Date: Sun May 12 2002 - 17:44:03 EDT


well, yeah, or really, really old :)

Jim

Micaela wrote:
>
> I agree with you, Jim. I think it's less about children, and more about how
> they represent a group of people who have yet to be indoctrinated into
> society and adopt its ways of regarding the world. Yet it still remains
> that the people I just described are, for the most part, usually children.
>
> -Micaela
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org
> [mailto:owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org]On Behalf Of Jim Rovira
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
> Subject: Re: unless ye become as little children
>
> I think the thing with Salinger and children (and I think you're right
> in looking to Teddy for answers) is indeed very much related to the
> influences of Zen Buddhism. The soul ages, grows, attains wisdom apart
> from normal human development so a Teddy, who has been reincarnated
> many, many times, can be very young and very gifted. The advantage of
> being a child (at least in western society...I think that comes across
> in Teddy as well) is that we haven't yet unlearned the wisdom we have in
> the course of our development as subjects in western society.
>
> This isn't necessarily something inherent in children, however -- you
> definitely get the feeling that in a differently structured society
> adult growth could enhance development rather than retard it. In that
> case all children need to concern themselves with is further growth in a
> society devoted to just that goal.
>
> My experience raising four wonderful kids (who have their share of
> problems) has been that children are everything everyone says they are.
> Evil, brutal, selfish monsters filled with awe, wonder, and innocence.
>
> Jim
>
> Micaela wrote:
> >
> > While many of you East of the Atlantic may believe us American to have
> idealized notions about children (which I am not wholly denying), I feel the
> need to put in my two cents. We too, ordinarily consider Lord of the Flies
> and Animal Farm as staples of high school reading. So I don't think you can
> simply chalk the views up to be reinforced by our standards of literature.
> >
> > Secondly, I think that we are discounting the basics of child psychology.
> So maybe you all have the worlds brattiest kids, so what. While all kids
> (and adults) have these selfish tendencies, they are, admittedly, to varying
> degrees (thank God). I think the writings of Foucault and Freud are very
> interesting on the stages of childhood development. A child DOES almost
> literally live in a state of awe. How wonderful to see the world as one
> giant oceanic state, not discerning oneself from the entirety. It seems so
> close to the ideals of Buddhism. To a baby, you are as much the baby as the
> baby is you. This recalls a quote from Teddy about how when he was six he
> realized that Booper was God and her milk was God and she was "just pouring
> God into God." Teddy's mind has stayed in the oceanic state, not allowing
> things to "stop off" all of the time. When we play peek-a-boo with a child,
> they truly think we are disappearing a reappearing...and how magical does
> that seem?
> >
> > I'm not saying that I adore all children, hell, I've certainly had my
> share of babysitting violent little brats, but there still remains a
> fundamental difference between the MINDSET of the child and the adult,
> despite the far reaches of the Atlantic, despite last September, despite a
> world full of horrid little children. Salinger's obsession with
> "adult-like" children seems to negate a lot of the unseemly elements of
> childhood (as we see in young Booper who has not been reincarnated many
> times) and to reinforce the positive (perhaps "oceanic") aspects of the
> minds of children, which thus contribute to their more enlightened states.
> >
> > -Micaela
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org
> > [mailto:owner-bananafish@roughdraft.org]On Behalf Of James Rovira
> > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:12 PM
> > To: bananafish@roughdraft.org
> > Subject: Re: unless ye become as little children
> >
> > While of course there are people on this side of the Atlantic who don't
> harbor any illusions about what children are really like (i.e., those that
> actually have children), I think there's a lot to be said for your ideas
> here. Of all the teachings of Christ we could have focused upon -- and the
> values that proceed from them -- we seem to have fixed upon this thing about
> children. What kind of a society woulddd we have if "be wise as serpents,
> but harmless as doves" was the dominant teaching, or even "love your
> neighbor as you love yourself?"
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Robert Bowman" <rbowman@indigo.ie>
> > To: <bananafish@roughdraft.org>
> > Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 20:45:21 +0100
> > Subject: unless ye become as little children
> >
> > Is it pushing things too far to suggest that the divergence
> > of views between Valèrie & Micaela on the simplicity
> > of children is a reflection of the wide Atlantic itself?
> >
> > I realise this is an old, & by now very boring, hobby-horse
> > of mine but I don't apologise for it. The mutual misapprehension
> > of the two cultures has engaged much better men than me:
> > Twain, Henry James, the Expatriates of the Twenties,
> > Graham Greene - to name only two.
> >
> > Although I know The Catcher appeared on the syllabus
> > of the more enlightened secondary schools of these lands,
> > what was much more extensively prescribed was
> > William Golding's Lord of the Flies - a darker vision
> > of boyhood altogether. All my sons' generation read it
> > for their Leaving Certificate, along with Animal Farm
> > - not exactly the most optimistic of works, either.
> >
> > Surely in almost all his stuff, Salinger assumes somewhere,
> > a state of blessed innocence to which all of us could,
> > or should, aspire (as saints) or revert (as children).
> > And isn't this an inherent part of the American Dream?
> > When Micaela hopes to God she won't, in twenty years,
> > be dulled by cyncism & disillusion, I think she's expressing
> > a sentiment deeply felt by her compatriots & not just
> > her contemporaries. In the Dream, when the wagons
> > roll west what moves us, surely, is the optimism undismayed
> > by considerations of mere reality? And what about those
> > two great archetypes, Huck & Gatsby? One a rogue,
> > the other a crook, yet both retaining a buoyancy that
> > derives from their essential naiveté.
> >
> > An important part of the American self image is a kindly,
> > innocent confidence - exploited all too often by the envious
> > world. But there it persists: undeterred, rising once again
> > up off the floor & ready to save the rest of us with
> > food parcels & lectures on the nature of democracy.
> > This is Love for the Fat Lady made manifest.
> >
> > The startling visibility of September Eleven rendered
> > it indelible for everyone - no matter what part of the world
> > they witnessed it. But away down deep, beneath the revulsion,
> > was the feeling among many non-Americans that this was
> > a long overdue disillusioning. For how many great European cities
> > - within living memory - was the death of a few thousands
> > in a morning by no means a one-off?
> >
> > Salinger is, of course, greatly cherished in Europe &
> > elsewhere but I doubt he ever enjoyed there, or could enjoy,
> > the acceptance that arises from that conviction he shares
> > with so many of his countrymen, the conviction:
> > 'YES. If we'd only shed all the shitty selfishness &
> > become again as litle children we could make the world
> > an Eden.'
> >
> > No one between the Brittany Coast & the Ural Mountains
> > could ever again possibly believe that.
> >
> > Scottie B.
> >
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