Camille Scaysbrook wrote: > Do you think the people who write Melrose Place consider themselves artists > and poets? Because this is the esteem in which the sort of things > Shakespeare wrote were held in. While this may be a handy analogy, it's misleading to the point of being basically entirely wrong. THere is a degree of similarity between Melrose Place and Elizabethan theater because both are/were consumed by the public as entertainment. But there is a significant gap between the aesthetic integrity of the two. It would be silly, wouldn't it, to suppose that, just because Elizabethan theatergoers spoke "Elizabethan English," they understood every line and joke in Shakespeare as television audiences understand every line and joke in television shows? Even lacking a proper education, Shakespeare's poetic capacity exceeded the intelligence of most of his audience members. Perhaps a better analogy would be a difficult art film that happens also to be a box office success. Or suppose David Foster Wallace writes a sequal to the Scream movies that has both excitement/gore and heavy symoblism/literary merit. THe event may be popular as public entertainment, but its aesthetic merit operates independently and survives independently of the popular audience. And the author of such a piece would be conscious both of a popular value and a poetic or artistic value. But I have wandered a bit. "This is the esteem in which the sort of things Shakespeare wrote were held in"... You may be suggesting that because certain sections of the audience thought of Shakespeare as entertainment devoid of artistic value, Shakespeare did, too. This suggestion would need support. > He didn't even bother to hold on to the > scripts, let alone consider publishing them. That's speculation. Besides which, it's a point equally suited to the other side of the argument. Supposing Shakespeare stood to profit from the sale of his plays (they were popular enough to be pirated, anyway), why wouldn't he publish them? Perhaps he didn't retain copies because the plays were the property of company. And Hemmings and Condel apparantly *did* retain copies of the plays, probably on behalf of the company. > To Shakespeare his poetry, not > his drama, was his highbrow stuff - ironic considering that your average > Joe wouldn't be able to tell you what the Phoenix and the Turtle is about > (let alone that the turtle's a bird, not a turtle). We really don't know what the poetry "meant" to Shakespeare. The Sonnets may well have been commissioned by a wealthy mother of an errant young man, as _Midsummer_ might have been commissioned for a noble wedding. In any case, is there any basis on which we can distinguish the "poetry" of the poems from the poetry of the plays? Can a formal difference (ie, between a sonnet, say, and a soliloquy) account for difference between art and pure entertainment, considering that the lines of both sonnet and soliloquy are equally "poetic"? Sonnet 129 features such poetic devices as enjambment, caesura, polyptoton, asyndeton and chiasmus--so does "to be or not to be." How is the difference to be qualitatively evaluated with any consistency? Finally, would Ben Jonson hang around with a person who didn't consider himself an artist? -- Matt Kozusko mkozusko@parallel.park.uga.edu