In a message dated 11/5/99 8:54:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, Akane574@cs.com writes: << i wonder...is it better to be jaded or naive? >> Notice I'm replying to Lauren, not Japhe. That way I can reply and keep my promise to myself. :) I'm not arguing with you, Japhe. No one is going to stop you from doing what you want. What do you care what I think? It feels right, Japhe, it must be right. Go -- call her. What are you waiting for? I have a better question. Who are you trying to convince? Good question, Lauren (P.S. You're very perceptive. I didn't mean the crown of thorns thing to reflect on you. I don't think I've ever detected a note of self pity in anything you've ever said. I personally think you're an absolute blast. There is hope for children of divorce if they come out like you sometimes). I like William Blake's take on the thing. You start out naive (innocence), become jaded (experience), then move past that to a state ... uhm ... something like "wise innocence." What I really believe isn't necessarily all that jaded, however. Let me try to describe the progression here in the context of our discussion now. Innocence: It's pretty easy (as a young man) to make much of being confided in by a (somewhat) older woman (who's still just a very large child herself -- but really, for all that matter, she may be a woman your age or younger. It doesn't matter). Easy to develop an exaggerated sense of the real intimacy that's taking place, etc. **Especially** if you're having sex. Boy does that complicate things. Experience: And then you move through all that and you find out it really wasn't as deep and meaningful as you once thought -- really, she would talk to **anyone** that was there and willing to listen. And that the real rush was the feeling of closeness itself, not the closeness "to that particular person." I mean, when the crisis is over and the two of you are together with nothing but the two of you (and not your pain in common) -- do you have a lot to talk about then? You don't get to find out until the crisis is over, of course. That's the rub :) Wise Innocence: Once you've seen what's been really happening you're in a position to develop a relationship based upon real intimacy -- based on something other than one another's need and hurt. You find someone that you have **strengths** in common with. Now That's a beautiful thing. It really happens sometimes too. It's worth taking risks for, and worth waiting for. When you're grown up enough to be ready for this kind of relationship, you don't feel so needy. See, that's because you've become honest about your own strengths. You feel good about them, are at ease with them, so are able to relate to another person on that level. By this point you're even OK being alone for awhile, in fact. That's because you don't need another person to make you feel worth a Feces. You know you are. You're not intimidated by others, so you're now able to really love them. Ah...my heart warms at the thought of it :) That's the point at which I am optimistic and not jaded, etc. . . But, eh, it's not like I have any Experience with this sort of thing ;) Jim P.S. We were talking about the "innocence" vs. the "experience" perspectives (though not in those terms) in my Irish Lit class last week. The innocent knows "a" woman, the experienced knows "women." :) But I do think you can go back to knowing "a" woman again after that. . .and it means more than it ever did before.