Re: Restored (and a final story for Luke and Daniel)

Thanks for including the photo...that was cool :) Responses below.

tina carson wrote:

>
> Come on! Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot, he was even crucified with 2
> other zealots, which, incidentally was the ONLY reason that you could be
> crucified, to be an enemy of the Roman state. If you fall for this twaddle
> about them crucifying him because the Jews wanted it, you haven't been
> paying attention.
> 1) If the Jews wanted him dead, they could, and would, have stoned him.

There are several instances in the Gospel of John where it is recorded the Jews
picked up stones to stone him, yes. That doesn't preclude the idea that they
may have gone to a Roman governor to do the job for them. Remember the charge
they tried to level against Christ before Pilate was that Christ was claiming
Kingship, thus rivalry with Ceasar (as you say below). Hence the Jews shouting,
"we have no king but Ceasar." They had to come across as loyal Roman subjects
to get the Roman ruler to do what they wanted.

All these details fit what you're saying if you think about it.

> 2) The Romans never did anything that their occupied peoples told them to.

I can dig up some pretty respectable scholarship that supports the Jews had more
self determination than most other Romans, and that Palestine was a real pain in
the butt province to govern. I think Pilate was ultimately dismissed in
disgrace. The Romans finally got fed up and levelled the place.

>
> 3) The story about Pilot asking whicxh one to set free is a myth. The
> Romans never did any such thing

Can you prove this?

>
> 4) We know this because the Romans were such good record keepers, that's why
> after the fall it's called the Dark Ages, because no one was keeping good
> records.

No working scholar today calls the period after the fall of the Roman Empire the
"dark ages." They feel it is a misnomer because it exaggerates the nature of
the period. There was just a discussion about this on the FICINO list, in fact.

Beyond this, the fact that a supporting Roman record doesn't exist isn't proof
that an event recorded elsewhere didn't happen. This is an argument from
silence. Records from antiquity are seldom exhaustive.

>
> 5) Therefore, we also know that the 4 gospels were written with ignorance of
> Jewish law and with a pro-Roiman slant, leaving them blameless.

How did we get from the Gospel of John to the four Gospels, and how does
anything you say above prove "ignorance of Jewish law"? You just made points
about Roman practice, not Jewish.

> 1) Jesus surrounded himself with zealots.

You mean like Matthew the tax collector? :)

>
> 2) where his bloodline came ferom is unimportant, what matters is the CLAIM
> to royalty

The bloodline is the basis of his claim. He had to be a descendant of David to
be able to claim royalty.

>
> 3) He claimed royalty, which was an automatic threat to Rome, therefore,
> ipso facto, he himself was a rebel, and by definition, a zealot.

So why was it so inconceivable that the Romans would be motivated to crucify
Christ in your point 2 above?

>
> 4) The Pharases were villified in the Bible, because, as any good Jew could
> tell you, Jesus taught Pharasitic thought. The Sadducees were
> collaborators, like the Vichy regime under the Nazis. As were the
> Sanhedran, who were the religious power. The Sanhedran and Sadducees were
> right, of course, in that any rebellion would be crushed like bugs under the
> Roman boot.
> "all for now" tina

The Sanhedrin was a ruling body composed of the Sadduccees, Pharisees, and
Scribes. The Sadduccees were the priestly class, had little interest in the
people, and it's not clear to me they were collaborators with Rome. I suspect
they'd be perfectly happy so long as they could carry on their temple practice
uninterrupted.

Christ and the Pharisees shared a great deal in common theologically, yes, but
that didn't keep Christ from pointing out the _moral_ failures of the
Pharisees. He wasn't quite in bed with the Pharisees. They really hated him.

Jim

-
* Unsubscribing? Mail majordomo@roughdraft.org with the message
* UNSUBSCRIBE BANANAFISH
Received on Thu Jul 24 23:38:03 2003