Good, passionate, honest post about Zen, Colby. I won't speak particularly and specifically for Zen in American, but I think buddhism is about the negation of things represented by linear logic and empirical perception for the sake of attaining "things" (bad word) that transcend linear logic. It's like ignoring the top layers of the cake to get to the bottom of the damn thing. It's About the loss of the boundaries of the self to achieve union with the One Self. I'm no buddhist, however. Again, this is an outsider talking. I have run into a few people that can talk about Zen intelligently and meaningfully and make enough sense about the loss of sense to at least point to an immediate goal (we attain this in stages). Others I've run into are just morons who deny the validity of rational thought to hide the fact of their stupidity. Jim