In a message dated 5/7/99 6:53:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RumAJF-U@hhs.bham.ac.uk writes: << i was under the impression you could participate in 'both'. The point is , you have to eat the 'apples' (logic, knowledge) and then transcend this logic, because it gets in the way of enlightenment etc. >> i totally agree.