Re: however, this is a tragic situation

responses below

Yocum Daniel GS 21 CES/CEOE wrote:

>Typo, covert. C-O-V-E-R-T. I am not talking specifically about the PC
>movement, where the hell did you get that, I am talking about the chosen
>subject matter that is chosen over a whole plethora of other material that
>for the most part relies on the same set of assumptions that are often
>contrary what the tuition payer thinks he is paying for. i.e. Diversity.
>Daniel
>
Yep, it was a typo, I know you meant covert. While you didn't, of
course, talk about the PC movement, the PC movement is one of the most
significant ways that academics are trying to change culture. The point
was about this desire to change going on "secretly;" my point is that
there's no secret about it.

They're just one group among many, though, and they're not the most rich
and influential group.

>If you say that selecting syllabi for freshman writing classes that reflects
>the professor's biases and then having the professor grade down papers that
>don't reflect an "acceptable" point of view is manipulative and wrong, I agree
>with you.
>Jim
>
>Who is restricting this to freshmen?
>Daniel
>

I was speaking in reference to some of the articles sent, actually.
Nothing in my sentence above "restricted" anything, though. Just an
example.

>I don't know how often that happens, though. It never happened to me. I've
>never done it to any student. The people I know that teach writing now at
>my
>University have their biases, and I talk to them about their students, but
>the
>students they get annoyed with are disruptive in class, not writing the
>"wrong"
>ideas.
>Jim
>
>How do you know it is not going on?
>

I didn't day it "does not go on," I said, "I don't know how -often- it
happens." In other words, I -do- know it goes on, I don't know that
it's widespread. I think this depends on the professor.

> That is part of the problem, I suspect
>that there is no check, many have experienced just that, your experience
>conflicts with mine, ok, but does not prudence dictate that it should be
>investigated? By whom, the prof who may be guilty of the accused deed? No,
>there needs to be a public check. And if anything, those links should turn
>your critical minds on to yourselves. If there is a lack of diversity, be
>it in a big city, shouldn't you be concerned Jim? Or are you going to get
>defensive and ignore it?
>Daniel
>

The way to deal with these issues is at the individual colleges in which
they occur. How else would you address it? Try to pass legislation
about the hiring of college professors and, even worse, the type of
assignments they can pass out?

Part of my point all along is that possible -national- solutions are
worse than the problems.

I promise you if parents start writing letters to college Presidents and
trustees that'll get some attention.

>I don't know what the heck you're talking about. Really. Are you saying I
>should be critical of the lack of political diversity? I don't know. It's
>clearly illegal and immoral to refuse to hire someone on the basis of race,
>religion, sex, etc. It's not clearly illegal to refuse to hire someone on
>the basis of political leanings. It may be immoral. But I don't even know how
>hiring committees could even evaluate that. What are they going to do? Try
>to infer politics from the dissertation? You think they read all those
>dissertations?
>
>No, I am saying that if some one makes an accusation why is the criticism
>directed at refuting the accusation only, the criticism should be directed
>at the defenders as well, isn't that how a middle grounder should respond?
>Daniel
>

You're missing the point, Daniel. Let's assume there is a problem.
Let's assume that there should be political diversity as well as racial,
religious, and sexual. Let's assume we should mandate that humanities
departments should hire representative numbers of Republicans or further
right to Democrats and further left.

My question then was, "how are you going to enforce this?" This is
almost like instituting a thought police of some sort. I don't like it
anywhere I see it and yes, when I see it on college campuses I don't
like it there either. Again, this is a matter of the solution being
worse than the problem.

The other problem with thinking that hiring committees are directly
influenced by the political leanings of applicants is that they're in no
position to know what they were. John indicated this too. It's really
hard to easily identify politics from a dissertation, esp. a
dissertation that's probably not completely read by the diss.
committee. The only other option would be to directly ask the candidate
who they voted for or what their politics were, and I'm not sure they're
allowed to do that.

It makes more sense to think that any left leaning bias in humanities
departments is the result of an overwhelming number of left leaning
applications (compare to right leaning).

>> think that singling any one out for any social reason is dangerous, is
>>social justice academia's job?
>>
>>
>This is stupid, Daniel. There are -laws- about refusing to hire people on
>the basis of race, religion, sex, etc.
>Jim
>
>Read more carefully, I agree that it is wrong to refuse to hire for those
>reasons but it is just as wrong to hire for those reasons but those who do
>hire for those reasons have no excuse based on their argument for diversity
>to exclude politics. How does a law automatically make something less or
>more dangerous?
>Daniel
>

I read perfectly fine. Look above. You asked, "is social justice
academia's job?" My response was to say that this has nothing to do
with academic hiring practices.

 From that point I asked if "political" diversity should be treated the
same way as ethnic or religious or sexual diversity. I question that,
simply on the basis of what someone would have to do to identify the
politics of job candidates.

>Yes, those who hold the chairs decide what is taught -- in the sense of
>course offerings. But then again, that's their job. Someone has to make that
>decision, and it's not wrong to do. They don't design the courses
>themselves, or determine the course content.
>Jim
>
>I agree, but those choices will reflect that chair's world view, ok, just
>make that well known. Many private schools do this, so it has and can be
>done.
>Daniel
>

What, you want a "statement of faith or lack thereof" publicly posted
for every department chair of every university? This is dumb :).

Some course offerings aren't a matter of choice, you know. There have to
be, always, X number of sections of writing courses and lit survey
courses. The electives are where choice can really be exercised, but
then the chair is limited to what the professors in his department can
teach.

>What kind of "universal qualifications" do you have in mind? Most hiring
>committees look at publications in the field, experience, people skills,
>etc.
>Jim
>
>That is your job Jim, you propose, the public will criticize and a choice
>will be made, all out in the sunshine.
>Daniel
>

No, Daniel -- if this is a public issue, really, the public should be
making the proposals.

You're complaining about a perceived problem, so it's up to you to begin
to propose a solution. I don't see one that will work. I already gave
you the reasons.

>>I do not have a problem with
>>left leaning academicians but I do have a problem with the denial of their
>>leanings and classroom activities as well as University college policies.
>>
>>
>What the heck are you talking about? Can you cite a single source about any
>kind of "denial" of classroom activities and college policies across the US?
>Jim
>
>You don't think that this does not go on? Go back and read those links, do
>a search. Open your eyes. Proffs claim that they do not influence their
>class in either direction but the choice of class material is often enough
>to show what nonsense this is Jim.
>Daniel
>

I read the links. Again, where is, specifically, evidence of a denial
of college or university policies? Those are usually made public. If
they aren't in some individual institutions, there's a problem at those
individual institutions. All public institutions should have them
available, though -- FERPA requirement, Financial Assistance policies
and procedures, health procedures -- all this should be in writing.
Specific rules about plagiarism and other PC issues should be in writing
too. I think that's a matter of law.

>>k, but which sets of these institutions set the agenda in the various
>>humanities fields?
>>Daniel
>>
>>
>Each institution sets its own agenda.
>Jim
>
>So, the community colleges decide what is acceptable and transferable to big
>state colleges?
>Daniel
>

eh, I think the State has something to do with that. I know in FL
commmunity college courses are supposed to transfer directly into state
Us without a glitch. Don't know exactly how that works, though.

Jim

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Received on Tue Sep 30 12:43:03 2003